[BCSWowbagger]

Well... I'll pass on the $10.
But yeah... me... two years ago at GenCon.

You, sir, need to post your decks in DeckBuilder more! I checked specifically to see whether any of the cards I listed had shown up in any of your decks, since you're the most pro-2EBC player I can think of.

Still, a bet's a bet. Send me your PayPal and the money's yours!

With 523 unconverted 2EBC cards there are all kinds of fun things that 2EBC cards bring to the 1E table.

I agree!

(Well, I agree with some of them. Practice Orbital Maneuvers, yes. Brutal Struggle, no. Although, even with the fun ideas, plenty of them don't quite work in 1E, Cadets being a good example.)

But the presence of those fun ideas in 1E also has a number of costs. 2EBC is not a free lunch: it's an ugly, sometimes broken barrier-to-entry for new 1E players, it's a cesspool of rules traps -- we have a series of entries in the Conversion Rules saying, "Imagine these words are in this card's lore in bold, please, because otherwise the persona will break"! -- and doing conversions that are bound to the original spirit (and image) of the 2E cards in question does a disservice to both games. I will never stop being frustrated that The Intendant (Crossover) and The Intendant have very different skills but a virtually identical image -- and that's because Creative had no choice but to use the image from Kira Nerys (Resourceful Prisoner) when they decided to make the new Intendant a conversion. Ditto the crippled, horrible conversion of Rule of Acquisition #33 that yielded Sucking Up To The Boss.

So keeping 2E is not cost-free. Now, maybe you think the costs are worth the benefits. If so, you're in good company: 40% of the community agrees with you! But the people who want to get rid of 2EBC are not acting illogically; they've simply weighed the costs and benefits differently.

My count is 87 so far. I'll post the list here when I finish counting.

I very much look forward to this list, and I'm sure the Discommendation team does, too.

I bet if we put polls out there, we could get 60% support to eliminate cards either Decipher or the CC created with a 1E template. Voyager cards spring to mind, given their power creep levels and a lot of CC cards going towards trying to fix the imbalance they created such as YAaM (before that got baked into the OTF rules).

I'll take that bet. I invite you to hold a poll on banning the Voyager expansion.

Maybe you could have found 60% support for banning the expansion a year after it came out, but today? I'd be surprised if you found more than 10% support -- and 10% only because you can find 10% support for anything.

(not a "supermajority" btw as only 10 people voting the other way would have changed the results.)

Tell that to the U.S. Senate, where there are 51 votes is a majority and 60 votes is... a supermajority.

[Mogor]

I bet if we put polls out there, we could get 60% support (not a "supermajority" btw as only 10 people voting the other way would have changed the results.) to eliminate cards either Decipher or the CC created with a 1E template. Voyager cards spring to mind, given their power creep levels and a lot of CC cards going towards trying to fix the imbalance they created such as YAaM (before that got baked into the OTF rules).

That doesn't mean it wouldn't suck to remove them from the game entirely. Especially for the 40%. The 60% repeatedly trying to explain why they have that opinion isn't going to change the opinion of the 40%, who are still a lot of people.

As I said in the other thread, there's going to be cards that are missed once Discommendation and all sets planned from before this decision are out. And, IMO, a lot of cool concepts that will never find their way back into 1E.

Especially since some of the sixty percent at least partially agree with the 40%

[tomek]

Well... I'll pass on the $10.
But yeah... me... two years ago at GenCon.

You, sir, need to post your decks in DeckBuilder more! I checked specifically to see whether any of the cards I listed had shown up in any of your decks, since you're the most pro-2EBC player I can think of.

Still, a bet's a bet. Send me your PayPal and the money's yours!

This time of year, I'm sure you will run across a person or organization who would appreciate that $10.
Give it to them... from both of us.

[tomek]

My count is 87 so far. I'll post the list here when I finish counting.

I very much look forward to this list, and I'm sure the Discommendation team does, too.

Ok... I'm guessing I've probably overlooked some 2EBC cards that are sitting in decks upstairs, but this is pretty representative, and its the best I could put together on short notice.

Missions
Retrieve Materiel
Secure Strategic Base
Assist Cloaked Ship
Breach Barrier
Investigate Stalled Ship
Practice Orbital Maneuvers

Dilemmas
Authenticate Artifacts
Unknown Microorganism
Causal Recursion
Command Decisions
Accelerated Aging
Echo Papa Attack
Inside Collaborators
New Advancements
Psychokinetic Control
Telepathic Deception

Events
A Sight for Sore Eyes
Awaiting Trial
Cargo Run
Condition Red
Coordinated Counterattack
Forcing Their Hand
Forever Linked
Gunboat Diplomacy
Jem’Hadar Strike Force
Just Like Old Times
Kotra
Legal Proceedings
Mission Accomplished
Nelvana Trap
One Man Cannot Summon the Future
Peacemaker or Predator?
Prejudice and Politics
Sickbay
The Void Alliance
USS Enterprise J

Interrupts
Clear Ultimatum
Covenant
Explicit Orders
Souls of the Dead
The Prophet’s Guidance
Vision of Violence

Federation
Benjamin Sisko, Man of Resolve
Beverly Crusher, Chief Medical Officer
Data, Aspirer
Jadzia Dax, Defiant Captain
Julian Bashir, Medical Staffer
Katherine Pulaski, Chief Medical Officer
Kira Nerys, Starfleet Emissary
Lenara Kahn, Wormhole Theorist
Rixx
James T Kirk, Irrational Human Being
Boothby, Groundskeeper
Dorian Collins
Jean Hejar
Karen Farris
Riley Shepard
Seth Matthews
Tim Watters
Bennet
Kenneth Darby, Insubordinate Crewman
Marie Kaplan, Observant Officer
Revised Chakotay
Revised Doctor
Revised Janeway
Revised Kim
Revised Neelix
Revised Paris
Revised Seven of Nine
Revised Tuvok
The Doctor, Emergency Command Hologram
USS Enterprise E, Federation Envoy
USS Valliant, Red Squad Training Ship
USS Enterprise C, Yesterday’s Enterprise

Starfleet
Amanda Cole
Hoshi Sato, Empress
Jeremiah Hayes, Diligent Major
Phlox, Alien Physiologist
Sean Hawkins
Williams, Starfleet Commander

Klingon
Gowron, Sole Leader of the Empire
Jadzia Dax, The Second Heart
Martok, Leader of Destiny
Azetbur, Visionary Chancellor

Romulan
Hiren, Romulan Praetor
Sela, Devious Schemer
Shinzon, Romulan Praetor
Khazara

Bajoran
Benjamin Sisko, The Emissary of the Prophets
Furel, Resistance Fighter
Kira Nerys, Bit of a Fighter
Kira Nerys, Blockade Commander
Kira Nerys, Impassioned Major
Kira Nerys, Lela
Kira Nerys, Outspoken Major
Kira Nerys, Reformed Collaborator
Kira Nerys, Rescuer
Kurn, Bajoran Security Officer
Lupaza, Resistance Fighter
Odo, Constable

Cardassian
Aamin Marritza, Honorable Patriot
Davin
Elim Garak, Agent of the Obsidian Order
Evek, Attache to the Demilitarized Zone
Lemec, Posturing Negotiator
Madred, Calculating Captor
Mavek, Science Officer
Parn

Dominion
Keevan, Conniving Liar
Kilana, Dissembling Envoy
Weyoun, Scheming Negotiator
Omat’Korex
Noret’Ikar
Odera’Klen
Rodak’koden
Tozara’Kesh

Ferengi
Grimp, Pessimist
Leosa, Grifter

Non-Alligned
B-4, Dangerous Simpleton
Benjamin Sisko, Outlaw
Bhavani
Brull, Encampment Leader
Durg
Etana Jol, Ktarian Operative
Flink
Inad
Jean-Luc Picard, Galen
Jo’Bril, Patient Schemer
Lal, Beloved
Leyor
Marouk, Sovereign of Acamar
Miss Sarda, Not a Legal Expert
Nel Apgar, Temperamental Researcher
Pran Tainer, Atrean Seismologist
Rabal
Regina Tosh
Serova, Warp Field Theorist
Togaran
Varria, Lavishly Rewarded Aide
Volnoth
Cyrus Redblock, Civil Criminal
Erik Soong, Father of Many
Khan Noonian Singh, Genetically Engineered Nemesis
Martia, Duplicitous Chameloid
Syrran, Desert Wind
USS Reliant, Part of One Big Happy Fleet

Borg
Callibration Drone
Reclamation Drone
Three of Nine, Tactician Drone
Harvest Drone
Synergy Drone

[Tim]

The 40% refers to the remove or status-quo poll on here? That poll will over represent higher level players and 2E players than the broader 1E community. But that's ok...

I've never gotten that impression that, at any point, 2EBC cards were accepted by the majority of 1E players. I'm pretty certain fewer than 40% of players currently use 2EBC cards in decks. However, when it comes to the 2EBC debate I always separate casual play from higher level tournament play. Removing 2EBC cards won't affect a lot of casual players because they don't use 2EBC in the first place. Its removal affects tournaments players so people active at that level should have a bigger say in the format rulings at that level. Although I do think 2EBC cards have been a wall between casual/new/returning players and higher level play, but not the most significant wall.

Personally, I think 2EBC are a sort of fun unknown universe of cards (other than the annoyance with Decipher's obvious cash scam). I never played 2E (and I stopped playing 1E around that time). Few years later getting back in to 1E, my first experience with 2EBC was the LackeyCCG plugin which enabled me to digitally get them all at once, it was super fun. I remember writing the script that converted all the "Astrometrics" to "(Astrophysics or Stellar Cartography)", and "in core" to "on table," and first combining 1E and 2EBC in a deck. But at that point I didn't know any 1E players who wanted to play with 2EBC cards so I never really got much use out of them.

1E is a wacky, insane game, that in a lot of ways is ridiculous and absurdly designed. IMO, if 1E is ever going to be anything like a reasonably designed manageable card game (which it never really can be) the inclusion of all these cards, from a completely different game, has to go.

[BCSWowbagger]

My count is 87 so far. I'll post the list here when I finish counting.

I very much look forward to this list, and I'm sure the Discommendation team does, too.

Ok... I'm guessing I've probably overlooked some 2EBC cards that are sitting in decks upstairs, but this is pretty representative, and its the best I could put together on short notice.

Thanks! Interesting list. Lots of non-surprises (Command Decisions), but a few surprises (Kotra??)

Incidentally, I know that Discommendation is looking at 2EBC usage statistics based on public decks as they decide which cards to include. The idea is to convert the most popular cards while leaving dusty cards like 2E Charvanek on the sidelines.

If you load these decks into deckbuilder and make them public, it helps Discommendation get a better picture of 2E use in 1E, and that could make the difference for an on-the-bubble card being included or excluded. I encourage you to post a couple of these decks over the holidays so we in the peanut gallery and the Discommendation team can see them.

(It would also help me to understand how a champion-caliber player is putting Kotra to good use.)

[Mogor]

I very much look forward to this list, and I'm sure the Discommendation team does, too.

Ok... I'm guessing I've probably overlooked some 2EBC cards that are sitting in decks upstairs, but this is pretty representative, and its the best I could put together on short notice.

Thanks! Interesting list. Lots of non-surprises (Command Decisions), but a few surprises (Kotra??)

Incidentally, I know that Discommendation is looking at 2EBC usage statistics based on public decks as they decide which cards to include. The idea is to convert the most popular cards while leaving dusty cards like 2E Charvanek on the sidelines.

If you load these decks into deckbuilder and make them public, it helps Discommendation get a better picture of 2E use in 1E, and that could make the difference for an on-the-bubble card being included or excluded. I encourage you to post a couple of these decks over the holidays so we in the peanut gallery and the Discommendation team can see them.

(It would also help me to understand how a champion-caliber player is putting Kotra to good use.)[/quote]

Honestly the best decks I've seen using 2EBC are not publicily posted. princetendebres makes heavy use of 2EBC cards and doesn't really post his decks.

Also a lot of very nice BC cards are unusable as the TNG icon doesn't translate into being a TNG property etc... So if the project lead is using deck stats as a planning tool, it's a really flawed one

[BCSWowbagger]

Also a lot of very nice BC cards are unusable as the TNG icon doesn't translate into being a TNG property etc... So if the project lead is using deck stats as a planning tool, it's a really flawed one

If you want to set up your final set of conversions to that the minimum number of players will have their current decks and play styles disrupted, and there are a bunch of cards that are unused in the current game (because they are, by your own statement, unusable)... you want to convert the cards that are actually being used, not the ones that could be popular if they were converted or if they got a play engine.

If we have to change cards -- or design entirely new ones! -- in order to make a 2E card useful in 1E, I think it's better to let it go now and let future Design try out the concept in the future without being bound by pre-existing 2E luggage. Let's see what 1E can do with, say, the Sarina Douglas Genetically Engineered team when it's not tied down by the existing 2E-template personnel (one of whom is banned, one of whom isn't backwards-compatible, and two of whom aren't used).

For right now, in the final conversions set, we will hopefully be seeing conversions of the most popular cards (perhaps with exceptions for cards that are only heavily used because of a fluke, like Cyrus Redblock (Civil Criminal), who has been widely used to drive Office of Dixon Hill because his 1E version was banned for so long).

[Zef'No]

Wrong model... this is not an election.
This is not identical to, but is closer to a business model.

It's not a business since the product is free. It's a hobby and it needs to serve the people who collect and play with the cards. 60% is a clear majority. The community has spoken and the direction we need to go in is clear. Obviously some people won't be happy, but displeasing 40% of the people is preferable to displeasing 60%.

But all 100% are currently using the product just the way it is now right now.

Not true. A large number of players don't use 2eBC cards at all. Another sizeable number use only a handful and do so very rarely. The vast majority of 2eBC cards aren't used by enough people in sufficient quantitates to warrant them sticking around.

Is the 1E player base so large that 40% can be dismissed as irrelevant?

Nobody said they were irrelevant. Quite the opposite in fact. Had the CC just done the simplest thing, they would have immediately banned all 2eBC cards months ago and never given it a second thought. As it is, we're still getting conversions throughout the next block just as we always have and we're getting a whole new set specifically designed to cater for this 40%. That's a lot of effort involved from a lot of people to do something which they wouldn't otherwise have done.

I still have a dream to build a Nemesis deck with Shinzon, the 2EBC Remans, and B-4 and a bunch of yellow androids... But after the Big Ban that will no longer be an option.

Not yet no, but one day in the future it will. We're still scheduled to get Remans in one of the future blocks and I'm fairly sure B4 will show up at some point too. And I'm also sure then when he does, he'll be a lot better than the 2e version currently is because we'll get a fresh original 1e version and not a holdover designed primarily for another game.

Trying to get a Cadet deck to work is fun.
Using the evil Voyager Holograms is fun.

Give it time, and all this will eventually be possible using future 1e-template cards too.

I'm currently trying to put together a list of all the unconverted 2EBC cards that I currently have in existing 1E decks... and yes, I have a lot of intact decks sitting in my room upstairs.

Is a card once used by one person in one deck really significant for anything?

At the end of the day, the decision has been made. Everyone may not agree, but the reasons for it have been discussed extensively on numerous threads going back several years, including this one, and summed up in the original article.

If you want to keep playing with 2eBC cards you can, just not in CC-sanctioned events.

[AllenGould]

Incidentally, I know that Discommendation is looking at 2EBC usage statistics based on public decks as they decide which cards to include. The idea is to convert the most popular cards while leaving dusty cards like 2E Charvanek on the sidelines.

Partly - remember that the issue presented was that existing decks would be ruined if BC cards just disappeared tomorrow. So we're using usage stats to see what cards players are using.

If you load these decks into deckbuilder and make them public, it helps Discommendation get a better picture of 2E use in 1E, and that could make the difference for an on-the-bubble card being included or excluded. I encourage you to post a couple of these decks over the holidays so we in the peanut gallery and the Discommendation team can see them.

Well, that would require us to pull the data. And since I just built myself a deck of *every* outstanding card (to make sure I physically *see* every possible card), it would show all cards getting use. Not really helpful.

Also a lot of very nice BC cards are unusable as the TNG icon doesn't translate into being a TNG property etc... So if the project lead is using deck stats as a planning tool, it's a really flawed one

It's *a* planning tool. Not *the only* planning tool. And that cuts both ways - there are BC cards that are only "not broken" because they don't have property icons today, but would on a 1E template.

[The Mad Vulcan]

I'm currently trying to put together a list of all the unconverted 2EBC cards that I currently have in existing 1E decks... and yes, I have a lot of intact decks sitting in my room upstairs.

Is a card once used by one person in one deck really significant for anything?

Yes. I think this is exactly the information we need to see. Which 2EBC cards are worth converting and which may not be. It's a great discussion. I personally think that those already converted represent a significant % of the total that should be converted (although its not yet half of the total). But we should be looking to make sure that whatever remains unconverted while still being an interesting/fun card should be considered for conversion.

B4 is a great example of a 2EBC card that should be wholly overhauled. There's no reason for the eventual 1E version of this character to be tied to the unfortunate 2E version.

[Caretaker's Guest]

Thanks for the list, Tomek! On first glance I am missing two cards: Distant Control and Strange New Worlds. They are both Events and pretty good.

[Mogor]

I'm currently trying to put together a list of all the unconverted 2EBC cards that I currently have in existing 1E decks... and yes, I have a lot of intact decks sitting in my room upstairs.

Is a card once used by one person in one deck really significant for anything?

Yes. I think this is exactly the information we need to see. Which 2EBC cards are worth converting and which may not be. It's a great discussion. I personally think that those already converted represent a significant % of the total that should be converted (although its not yet half of the total). But we should be looking to make sure that whatever remains unconverted while still being an interesting/fun card should be considered for conversion.

B4 is a great example of a 2EBC card that should be wholly overhauled. There's no reason for the eventual 1E version of this character to be tied to the unfortunate 2E version.

Heck get some community involvement on it. I'm sure there's 3 piles of 2EBC cards, ones that really need to be converted, ones that are on the fence, and ones that shouldn't be converted period.

I would love for design to split the 2EBC into those 3 piles, and make those lists PUBLIC. Especially for input into the on the fence catagory

[Boffo97]

Tell that to the U.S. Senate, where there are 51 votes is a majority and 60 votes is... a supermajority.

Actually, 67 votes would be a supermajority, since that would be what's necessary to override a Presidential veto.

This site agrees with me on that.

Still think we should have had higher numbers than that before taking such a drastic action. Especially since, as stated, higher level players will be overrepresented in such a survey. I could see someone wanting to come back to the game having a high number of 2EBC cards and being unhappy that part of their collection got wiped from the game.

[BCSWowbagger]

Tell that to the U.S. Senate, where there are 51 votes is a majority and 60 votes is... a supermajority.

Actually, 67 votes would be a supermajority, since that would be what's necessary to override a Presidential veto.

60 is the threshold to break a filibuster, and thus is properly called a supermajority. See, for example, here here here here here and here. There are, of course, even larger supermajorities required for certain things (two-thirds to override a veto, unanimity for certain expeditious procedural matters), as you note.

Well, that would require us to pull the data. And since I just built myself a deck of *every* outstanding card (to make sure I physically *see* every possible card), it would show all cards getting use. Not really helpful.

You should be able to pull the data so that it only counts public decks. (You're right that plenty of us have those private all-2EBC decks.) So as long as you make the deck, but keep it private, you should be fine.

Depending on who's pulling the data, of course.

(I know there are other concerns besides raw popularity, of course. Just want to make sure you have the best possible data on that aspect of it!)