[Boffo97]

I would be against simply unloading Miracle Worker, even if offloaded onto another card. Any Scotty certainly deserves Transporter Skill, maybe even x2 given that we often saw Scotty take over for the regular Transporter officer once things got tricky.

I would be even more against creating lots more Miracle Workers. I was even against Emissary Miles getting the skill, though fixing Reunion would go a long way towards alleviating that.

[Legate_Damar]

I would be against simply unloading Miracle Worker, even if offloaded onto another card. Any Scotty certainly deserves Transporter Skill, maybe even x2 given that we often saw Scotty take over for the regular Transporter officer once things got tricky.

I would be even more against creating lots more Miracle Workers. I was even against Emissary Miles getting the skill, though fixing Reunion would go a long way towards alleviating that.

Agreed 100%. If you remove Transporter Skill from "inside" Miracle Worker, then you have a situation where TNG Montgomery Scott, the original Miracle Worker personnel, doesn't have Transporter Skill, even though he found a way to keep himself alive in a transporter for 75 years....

[Takket]

This is a solution in search of a problem..........

leave it as it is

[AllenGould]

I would be even more against creating lots more Miracle Workers. I was even against Emissary Miles getting the skill, though fixing Reunion would go a long way towards alleviating that.

I would have agreed before DS9. Now that it's no longer a vanity skill but an actual in-game use, then it needs to be properly supported. I can see an ep supporting a Rom with it, for an obvious version. And (barring the very funny joke on this topic), do we really think Humans are the only species who invented duct tape?

(In particular, I'd say Miracle Worker shouldn't appear on more dilemmas or missions, but be on more cards like Jury Rig)

[Se7enofMine]

And (barring the very funny joke on this topic), do we really think Humans are the only species who invented duct tape?

The answer is probably no. BUT the more important question is: does another race, besides human, have a stud like Red Green to fully appreciate the awesome power of said duct tape?

[frakkingoff]

It can be so simple though!

It's even simpler if you just ban all the Miracle Worker cards. Then there's nothing to fix!

It's fun and easy to ignore the consequences of decisions...you just start by simply choosing not to read the past three pages of discussion about the nature of those consequences! That way we can pretend the consequences don't exist! So simple!

Yes, I'm aware of the history of "Miracle Worker," and I think it only serves to back up my point. Decipher always intended to keep loading up the skill, adding more to it.

Except for when they actually released the card, when they had no such intention. As I noted, the idea of loading up Miracle Worker didn't even show up until after the card had been out a good long while.

Assuming Scotty came out in AU (I don't have the release date of the Warp Pack), Miracle Worker existed for 10 months without a loaded skill. It then spent 6 years and 9 months (the rest of the Decipher era, until AGT) with the loaded skill, including multiple years in which new Miracle Worker cards are added. I think the overall design intent is on the side of "loaded skill."

I think the only reason Decipher didn't unload it is because they didn't get around to it. The unloading of Dumb QC Loaded Skills was a slow process that they only undertook when they had a card slot where it made sense (but they still did it).

The overall breadth of AGT's efforts to close any holes or gaps in the game shows that "Miracle Worker" wasn't really something they considered unfinished or in need of attention/fixing. Forty cards is a lot - there was plenty of room for a Miracle Worker card fix if they wanted, as they didn't seem bound by card slot limitations at that point.

They even gave us a card for "Barbering" - another ridiculous skill. If one ridiculous skill deserves a card slot, it stands to reason that the other would as well....if they considered it in need of anything. We didn't get anything, so it stands to reason they didn't think it needed anything.

So, to be clear, you do think HQ: Defensive Measures is a travesty, just not as much of one? Why is that? Because it's older? Because it's flavored differently? Still genuinely curious about this school of thought.

My feelings on this one are complicated. I would have to do some soul-searching to be able to explain it in words, but ideas that come to mind are:

-The Defensive Measure/Tal Shiar skill was always much more confusing (giving you special abilities as opposed to just other built-in passive skills like Transporter Skill). So perhaps that needed a card more.

-The Defensive Measure/Tal Shiar skill is much more special case and less generally useful than Miracle Worker/Transporter Skill. So perhaps that weakened existing Tal Shiar cards less.

-The Defensive Measure change happened earlier in the game's history (and before other cards added to the Tal Shiar precedent, whereas added cards continued to add to the Miracle Worker precedent). So perhaps that reduced the ripple effect AND conflicted less with previous design intent.

Overall, HQ: Defensive Measures is less of a travesty than Cybernetics Expertise, which in turn would be less of a travesty than any Miracle Worker change.

[AllenGould]

Assuming Scotty came out in AU (I don't have the release date of the Warp Pack)

According to Memory Alpha, Warp Pack came out May 1995, AU came out November '95.

They even gave us a card for "Barbering" - another ridiculous skill. If one ridiculous skill deserves a card slot, it stands to reason that the other would as well....

Three points on this:

1. AGT is still a print product, so there is a limitation on how many cards you can have based on the size of your print sheet. (I don't know this for sure, but I'll bet it was on their usual 11x11 sheet, which lets them print each card three times, plus one blank/promo.)

2. Barbering had history, and the promise of a punchline. Remember - the original product lineup was only four sets: Premiere, AU, QC, All Good Things. AGT got pushed back when they got the rights to more than just TNG. Each of the first three sets has a Barbering card (Mot the Barber, Mot's Advice, Barber Pole)... and the hints back then was that the last set would have a reason for it to exist (I suspect not the text we have today, though). Which leads to..

3. There was definitely a pecking order to what made it into AGT, based on what the community at the time and the developers at the time thought was more or less important. No-one was caring about Miracle Worker at the time, so it got bumped in favor of things people wanted instead (mostly odd references to things, really: there's a lot of fan-service in that set. )

[frakkingoff]

3. There was definitely a pecking order to what made it into AGT, based on what the community at the time and the developers at the time thought was more or less important. No-one was caring about Miracle Worker at the time, so it got bumped in favor of things people wanted instead (mostly odd references to things, really: there's a lot of fan-service in that set. )

That's sort of the point I was trying to make with that argument.

[Borg King]

It can be so simple though!

It's even simpler if you just ban all the Miracle Worker cards. Then there's nothing to fix!

It's fun and easy to ignore the consequences of decisions...you just start by simply choosing not to read the past three pages of discussion about the nature of those consequences! That way we can pretend the consequences don't exist! So simple!

Putting forward my opinion and an alternative option as to how to resolve an issue does not mean that I don't understand the issues raised or that I've ignored the previous discussion.

You might not like the solution I presented but I fail to see how further complications could stream from those actions. If you do see flaws in the argument then please, by all means raise them and we can have a discussion regarding the pros and cons.

Simply dismissing it as ignorant and without value or merit reflects more on you than I.

[frakkingoff]

Putting forward my opinion and an alternative option as to how to resolve an issue does not mean that I don't understand the issues raised or that I've ignored the previous discussion.

When your option ignores its own inherent problems, which have been discussed for three pages, then the logical conclusion is that either you don't understand the issues or you've simply ignored the existence of the prior discussion.

I guess I hadn't considered the possibility that you are aware of the issues and prior discussion, but just don't care.

You might not like the solution I presented but I fail to see how further complications could stream from those actions. If you do see flaws in the argument then please, by all means raise them and we can have a discussion regarding the pros and cons.

We've been raising them and discussing pros and cons for four pages now. Further complications, and problems associated with your proposed solution, have been the topic of discussion.

Simply dismissing it as ignorant and without value or merit reflects more on you than I.

I guess trolls are gonna troll.

[BCSWowbagger]

Okay, guys, mod hat now. Don't let this get personal, on either side. You've both made your points, now let's keep on keeping it about the cards.

[AllenGould]

3. There was definitely a pecking order to what made it into AGT, based on what the community at the time and the developers at the time thought was more or less important. No-one was caring about Miracle Worker at the time, so it got bumped in favor of things people wanted instead (mostly odd references to things, really: there's a lot of fan-service in that set. )

That's sort of the point I was trying to make with that argument.

But there's a difference between "they didn't see it as a problem" and "they had forty cards that felt were better". Especially when you consider that MW wasn't a "broken link", so it isn't entirely in-flavor for the set in the first place.