[MidnightLich]

Well, it was an incredibly close vote, but we've picked our character and story: Joran Sisko. This is Sisko embodying the memories of Joran Dax during the episode "Facets." As the next steps in Will of the Collective IV, we're going to decide which affiliation he should be and give you the opportunity to suggest special skills and/or downloads for the character.

First, this poll is to decide which affiliation our Joran Sisko will be. It's been discussed a bit in public and a little more by the design team, and the choice is threefold: Federation, Non-Aligned, or dual-affiliation Federation/Non-Aligned. That's what you're going to decide in this poll. It will be up for one day only, ending around 12 PM Pacific on Wednesday, January 24th. You can vote for one of the three options, and change your vote at any time. Your votes will decide which affiliation(s) our new personnel will be.

(Note: In the event of a tie, the winner will be decided randomly.)

Once you have voted, please head over to the nominations thread for Joran Sisko's special skills and/or downloads.

Have fun!

-crp

[Zef'No]

Here, we should consider what affiliation Joran should be (not Sisko).

What constitutes "affiliation" is more a matter of consciousness rather than the physical body.
As an example, consider the holograms from Our Man Bashir which are all Non-Aligned.

One relevant question is therefore, what is the extent of the relationship between Trill and the Federation? This was discussed earlier.

The other thing we must be careful of is not making someone Non-Aligned simply because they are "evil". If we did that, then it would be impossible to ever have a Federation-affiliated personnel with Treachery.

A final consideration might be, what would make the card most useful? Which affiliation would benefit most from what Joran has to offer?

[MidnightLich]

One consideration for you to think about: a card is going to have more restrictions on it's power level than a card. This is mostly in reference to the power of a special skill, and entirely due to the fact than an card can appear in far more decks than a card.

The choice is yours, but it will affect how the nominations for special skills are curated.

-crp

[Armus]

Process question: can we revisit this question if needed later on?

I can see a situation where we vote one way (say, Non-aligned) then once we get through the rest of the particulars, it becomes apparent that the card we've created would be better off as a different affiliation (say, Fed).

Just wondering if that's possible.

[MidnightLich]

Process question: can we revisit this question if needed later on?

I can see a situation where we vote one way (say, Non-aligned) then once we get through the rest of the particulars, it becomes apparent that the card we've created would be better off as a different affiliation (say, Fed).

Just wondering if that's possible.

Sure. I don't have a process worked out for it, but I can try to come up with something.

-crp

[Slayer07]

Slight backtrack here. What species is he supposed to be? Human, joined Trill? Something else altogether? That could be a huge factor in what he should be voted. As a human it may not matter so much but if for some reason he becomes a joined trill he would be the first non-aligned of that type.

[MidnightLich]

Slight backtrack here. What species is he supposed to be? Human, joined Trill? Something else altogether? That could be a huge factor in what he should be voted. As a human it may not matter so much but if for some reason he becomes a joined trill he would be the first non-aligned of that type.

He does not have a symbiote, so he's not a joined trill.

I'm not sure how to justify him being anything but human.

-crp

[Slayer07]

Slight backtrack here. What species is he supposed to be? Human, joined Trill? Something else altogether? That could be a huge factor in what he should be voted. As a human it may not matter so much but if for some reason he becomes a joined trill he would be the first non-aligned of that type.

He does not have a symbiote, so he's not a joined trill.

I'm not sure how to justify him being anything but human.

-crp

I agree that he wouldn't be a joined trill. I'm not sure either I feel he isn't just human but I don't know exactly how that would be worked around.

[BCSWowbagger]

One consideration for you to think about: a card is going to have more restrictions on it's power level than a card. This is mostly in reference to the power of a special skill, and entirely due to the fact than an card can appear in far more decks than a card.

I gently question this.

If this were, say, vs. , then yes, absolutely, the is available to far more decks and thus is far more powerful.

But this is vs. . inherently have tremendous access to a huge range of deck types. They can pop up in any quadrant, any era, and slot right into a deck native to that quadrant or era. Of course, can do the same.

But a card also has multiple opportunities to get into play on the cheap. Trust The Prophets makes him downloadable by the relevant Site. (We Need You Here eliminates the cost.) Here By Invitation makes him a free play who fits into a Fed deck or a Bajoran deck, and HBI also allows him to report directly aboard the Defiant without worrying about having a relevant site. Type 18 Shuttlepods can drop him into play without needing a to accompany him.

There's nothing comparable for . A card pretty much has to be drawn out of the deck using draws (unless he's got the skills to show up in Cargo Bay). Then you have to play him, at full cost, and that's your card play for the turn (your most valuable asset on any given turn).

I mean, who shows up in more decks? Lwaxana Troi (20th Anniversary) or Dukat (Things Past)? Graham Davis or Rax'na? Altovar and Soto are the only empathy available to non- in an environment controlled by Quantum Incursions, and deckbuilders still seriously debate whether they're worth the trouble of including because they're so darned expensive.

I tend to think, then, that the personnel is actually the safer bet, and justifies a stronger special skill. Joran might show up in a wider variety of decks if he's , but (1) that's good; non- continue to need help, and (2) he's presumably going to cost a card play after random draw, whereas any is going to be downloaded directly to a site on Turn 1 or played for free.

I know the general rule is 2E is that are more available to more decks than , and their abilities are calibrated appropriately... but I think there are areas in 1E where the opposite is true.

My .

[frakkingoff]

I voted for Federation.

Beyond ample screen evidence that Trill is part of the UFP, the fact that it's a Trill in the body of a Federation captain tips the scales for me. Joran would definitely use his new host body's professional background and access to his advantage. If Maquis Thomas Riker is still Fed, then I think Joran Sisko should be.

Mechanically, it also makes it more interesting. If we indeed give him some kind of skill that lets him kill opposing personnel, it makes him a cool tool specifically for the Feds, who are generally not able to deal with opposing personnel/away teams as effectively (due to battle restrictions).

Being able to plant a knife in the back of an opposing away team, via Joran Sisko, is a neat alternative for the Feds who can't just shoot their phasers at opposing dissidents. Making him would make it feel less special (and might tip him into OP territory).

[Slayer07]

The other thing we must be careful of is not making someone Non-Aligned simply because they are "evil". If we did that, then it would be impossible to ever have a Federation-affiliated personnel with Treachery.

Here is a delicate balance. You're right that we can't say someone is non-aligned because they are considered evil. But look at motive behind it. People like Admiral Leyton, Eric Pressman (who needs an updated card I think) and Luther Sloan believe they are doing what is right for the Federation even if their methods are questionable. Someone like Joran or Lon Suder however are not doing what they think is right for the Federation but murdered for selfish reasons.

That is why I would argue that Joran, even in Sisko's body, should not be Federation. I'd make the same argument for other things like Power play Troi, Data and O'Brien if those were ever done.

[Jono]

Don’t forget Recruit Mercenaries can download a Treachery personnel. I’m voting

[BCSWowbagger]

Beyond ample screen evidence that Trill is part of the UFP

Suppose you're right, and Trill is a member of the Federation in 2373.

Do you really think Trill was already a member of the Federation in 2286, when Joran Dax died? I think that's really hard to justify, canonically.

For perspective, that's the same year as the arrival of The Whale Probe at Earth and 4 years before the Blood Oath people even encountered The Albino (and the actual Blood Oath was not taken until some years after that, when The Albino had his revenge).

[Slayer07]

Beyond ample screen evidence that Trill is part of the UFP

Suppose you're right, and Trill is a member of the Federation in 2373.

Do you really think Trill was already a member of the Federation in 2286, when Joran Dax died? I think that's really hard to justify, canonically.

For perspective, that's the same year as the arrival of The Whale Probe at Earth and 4 years before the Blood Oath people even encountered The Albino (and the actual Blood Oath was not taken until some years after that, when The Albino had his revenge).

But we're not talking Joran Dax, we're talking Joran Sisko. If he were to be Federation at all I think it would be linked to his 'inhabiting' Benjamin Sisko more than what he was back then.

[frakkingoff]

Suppose you're right, and Trill is a member of the Federation in 2373.

Do you really think Trill was already a member of the Federation in 2286, when Joran Dax died? I think that's really hard to justify, canonically.

Yes, I do. Why would a Dax travel to Earth to judge a gymnastics competition at a University in the era of Dr. McCoy, if she weren't a UFP citizen?