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Which icons should appear on Joran Sisko? (Vote once per "category.")

YES: <Fed> Infiltration Icon
17
6%
NO: <Fed> Infiltration Icon
34
11%
YES: (*> Nemesis Icon
8
3%
NO: (*> Nemesis Icon
43
14%
YES: [1E-AU] Icon
5
2%
NO: [1E-AU] Icon
46
15%
YES: [Orb] Icon
5
2%
NO: [Orb] Icon
46
15%
YES: [Cmd] Staffing Icon
7
2%
YES: [Stf] Staffing Icon
7
2%
NO: No Staffing Icon
38
12%
YES: [OCD] Icon
5
2%
NO: [OCD] Icon
45
15%
User avatar
Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#413782
Welcome to step 10 of the Will of the Collective! In this poll, you'll vote on the icons that can appear on the finished card.

I did not do a nomination process for icons because there are so few, and when you examine them critically, only a handful could apply. So you can consider this list of icons curated from the set of all icons in the game. Out of all of the icons, I have identified six (6) that have any kind of justification, no matter how slight. You will be able to use your votes to determine if that justification is valid (or not).

Here are the choices that you'll have to make.

1. Federation Infiltration <Fed>
The diamond Federation infiltration icon marks a personnel as someone that is attempting to pose as a member of the Federation. One possible option for a character with this icon is giving him a persona in bold and italic text, i.e. Benjamin Sisko. This means that an opponent's version of Sisko could expose our card as an infiltrator. This isn't required to carry the icon.

2. Nemesis Icon (*>
The nemesis icon marks a personnel or ship as someone with an arch-enemy; the two have a rivalry so acrimonious that they literally destroy each other if ever they meet. Each pair of nemesis icons have a unique color. The exact nature of the icon, if selected, would need to be defined in a subsequent poll.

3. Alternate Universe [1E-AU]
This icon marks a card as being from the past, future, or alternate universe. It's also occasionally be used to mark an unusual character even though they aren't technically from a different time or place.

4. Orb Experience [Orb]
This icon marks a character that has had an experience with a Bajoran Orb.

5. Staffing
A staffing icon indicates that a personnel has some ability to operate a space vessel, no matter how much or what type of ability that might be. There are two, mutually exclusive options: [Cmd] which indicates a high degree of skill or an ability to issue execute command functions; or [Stf] which is a lower level ability.

6. Optical CD [OCD]
Typically associated just with Zefram Cochrane, this icon could be expanded to mean something more. This is by far the most "out there" of the suggestions. We would need to explore how to expand this icon's definition should this option be selected.

Your job now is to vote on the icons you want to see on the card. This poll will be up for just 24 hours - a single day - ending around 2:45 PM Pacific on Wednesday, January 31th. Each of you will be able to vote for up to six (6) choices, and you can change your vote at any time until the poll closes.

The intention of the quantity of votes is that each of you will vote once in each "category" of options. For example, you can vote YES or NO to the [1E-AU] icon as well as all of the other icons. If you choose to vote differently, such as voting YES and NO for the same option, you may, but it might have odd results.

Please note that all six of these icon options go on the left side of the personnel's lore box. This means that, at most, our finished card can feature three icons. This means that only the top three (3) icons can appear on the card, but many of you may not want to see that mayn icons on the card. Therefore, to mitigate this situation, I am setting a threshold that an icon can only actually appear on the card if it receives at least twenty (20) votes.

Have fun, and please feel free to post your thoughts and arguments for or against icons. Tomorrow, we'll start the nomination process for keywords (lore references) which should be a lot of fun!

-crp
User avatar
 
By Zef'No
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#413784
None.

It doesn’t make sense to give him any icons.

[Cmd] and [Stf] are related to ship staffing. There is no indication he ever went anywhere near a ship, so they’re both out.

[1E-AU] Joran from Field of Fire would have this (as a vision/hallucination/dream figure - a category not addressed in Charlie's OP but definitely part of the game), but not a Sisko version. Nothing AU about him. The memory transfer effect we saw was similar to a Vulcan Mindmeld; it’s telepathic mumbo jumbo, but nothing about an alternate universe.

Image - Nope. He didn’t infiltrate anything. He was in Sisko’s body, but that doesn’t make you an infiltrator in the STCCG sense of the term. Everyone knew it was the mind of Joran, there was no pretence here, no undercover operation. Plus he was imprisoned behind a forcefield the whole time so couldn’t do anything even if he wanted to.

[Orb] Joran never had any encounter with an Orb.

Remember again we’re doing Joran here, not Sisko. Everything that was “Sisko” was suppressed. There is nothing Sisko here apart from the body.
Last edited by Zef'No on Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
 
By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#413786
I disagree on Federation infiltration. He had access to Sisko's memories, and did manage to fool people into thinking he was Sisko (for a short time, anyway).

Maybe that's not enough for a full-blown infiltration icon... perhaps we could go back and add a special skill that gives him the icon for one turn, once per game?
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#413788
Zef'No wrote:None.

Image - Nope. He didn’t infiltrate anything. He was in Sisko’s body, but that doesn’t make you an infiltrator in the STCCG sense of the term. Everyone knew it was the mind of Joran, there was no pretence here, no undercover operation. Plus he was imprisoned behind a forcefield the whole time so couldn’t do anything even if he wanted to.
Despite the fact I think I mentioned it earlier, or at least supported it, I agree now it doesn't make sense. I just want to take this chance to ask how you got an infiltration icon in that image. We don't have those in the rest of the icon areas.

I voted for no icons. Only the [Stf] icon makes remote sense and even that is a huge stretch.
User avatar
 
By Zef'No
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#413789
nobthehobbit wrote:I disagree on Federation infiltration. He had access to Sisko's memories, and did manage to fool people into thinking he was Sisko (for a short time, anyway).
For a about 30 seconds. He couldn't keep it up for long. He's clearly not in the same category as long-term deep cover agents such as Bashir Founder, Arne Darvin or Boone Impersonator.

Look at all the infiltration cards in the game; it simply doesn't make sense to allow Joran access to them.
Here are some:
Treacherous Advice
Covert Agent
Counterintelligence
Inside Operation
Issue Secret Orders
Slayer07 wrote:I just want to take this chance to ask how you got an infiltration icon in that image..
Feel free to copy the code if you wish.
Last edited by Zef'No on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#413790
Zef'No wrote:Remember again we’re doing Joran here, not Sisko. Everything that was “Sisko” was suppressed. There is nothing Sisko here apart from the body.
On that note: the card title should be Joran Dax, should it not? (Or perhaps even Joran Belar, since he doesn't have the symbiont in this scene?) "Joran Sisko" ain't nobody's name.

I'm waffling on the infiltrator icon. We've had some personnel in the game who were given infiltration icons despite only fooling people for a few seconds, or despite not really infiltrating the target government. Odo Founder, Kira Founder... O'Brien Founder didn't even bother to convince Sisko he was O'Brien, he just revealed himself as a Founder in O'Brien's guise and went from there. Gannet Brooks posed as a reporter and that alone qualifies her as an infiltrator...

Yeah, okay, I talked myself into it. I'm voting yes on <Fed> infiltrator for Joran Dax (unless someone convinces me I'm wrong, which has happened before in this WotC).
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#413792
Zef'No wrote:
Slayer07 wrote:I just want to take this chance to ask how you got an infiltration icon in that image..
Feel free to copy the code if you wish.
Does this code work for the other infiltration icons too?
BCSWowbagger wrote:
Zef'No wrote:Remember again we’re doing Joran here, not Sisko. Everything that was “Sisko” was suppressed. There is nothing Sisko here apart from the body.
On that note: the card title should be Joran Dax, should it not? (Or perhaps even Joran Belar, since he doesn't have the symbiont in this scene?) "Joran Sisko" ain't nobody's name.

I'm waffling on the infiltrator icon. We've had some personnel in the game who were given infiltration icons despite only fooling people for a few seconds, or despite not really infiltrating the target government. Odo Founder, Kira Founder... O'Brien Founder didn't even bother to convince Sisko he was O'Brien, he just revealed himself as a Founder in O'Brien's guise and went from there. Gannet Brooks posed as a reporter and that alone qualifies her as an infiltrator...

Yeah, okay, I talked myself into it. I'm voting yes on <Fed> infiltrator for Joran Dax (unless someone convinces me I'm wrong, which has happened before in this WotC).
It should not be Joran Sisko, you're right. I don't think it should be Joran Dax either, that would indicate that he has the symbiote and at this point he does not. It should either be Joran Belor or just plain Joran.
User avatar
 
By Zef'No
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#413793
BCSWowbagger wrote:On that note: the card title should be Joran Dax, should it not? (Or perhaps even Joran Belar, since he doesn't have the symbiont in this scene?) "Joran Sisko" ain't nobody's name.
Agreed, but not Joran Dax (since no symbiont), and not Joran Belar (since that was him pre-joined).
I would vote simply for "Joran".

I think there's a "nominate title" phase coming soon, so I imagine this will be discussed then.
But yeah, there is the worry that people will become so accustomed to "Joran Sisko" by then that they may not be inclined to choose anything different.
BCSWowbagger wrote:I'm waffling on the infiltrator icon. We've had some personnel in the game who were given infiltration icons despite only fooling people for a few seconds, or despite not really infiltrating the target government. Odo Founder, Kira Founder... O'Brien Founder didn't even bother to convince Sisko he was O'Brien, he just revealed himself as a Founder in O'Brien's guise and went from there. Gannet Brooks posed as somebody but that seems like a bit of a stretch in itself....
The Founders were probably because it was a Dominion thing originally; Decipher presumably wanted all founders that looked like people we know to be able to have access to that mechanic. Brooks was clearly an anomalous case and should not set a precedent.

We can't start throwing infiltration icons around like confetti.
Should Data have a Fed infiltration icon just because he impersonated Picard's voice a couple of times?
Should Benjamin Sisko have a NA infiltration icon just because he once pretended to be a Kobheerian (Second Skin)?
Should The Doctor have one for his antics in Renaissance Man?
Slayer07 wrote:Does this code work for the other infiltration icons too?
For some. There's a list here (scroll down to my post at the bottom)
Last edited by Zef'No on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#413794
Zef'No wrote:
BCSWowbagger wrote:On that note: the card title should be Joran Dax, should it not? (Or perhaps even Joran Belar, since he doesn't have the symbiont in this scene?) "Joran Sisko" ain't nobody's name.
Agreed, but not Joran Dax (since no symbiont), and not Joran Belar (since that was him pre-joined).
I would vote simply for "Joran".

I thin there's a "nominate title" phase coming soon, so I imagine this will be discussed then.
But yeah, there is the worry that people will become so accustomed to "Joran Sisko" by then that they may not be inclined to choose anything different.
BCSWowbagger wrote:I'm waffling on the infiltrator icon. We've had some personnel in the game who were given infiltration icons despite only fooling people for a few seconds, or despite not really infiltrating the target government. Odo Founder, Kira Founder... O'Brien Founder didn't even bother to convince Sisko he was O'Brien, he just revealed himself as a Founder in O'Brien's guise and went from there. Gannet Brooks posed as somebody but that seems like a bit of a stretch in itself....
The Founders were probably because it was a Dominion thing originally; Decipher presumably wanted all founders that looked like people we know to be able to have access to that mechanic. Brooks was clearly a mistake and should not set a precedent.

We can't start throwing infiltration icons around like confetti.
Should Data have a Fed infiltration icon just because he impersonated Picard's voice a couple of times?
Should Benjamin Sisko have a NA infiltration icon just because he once pretended to be a Kobheerian (Second Skin)?
We in fact have precedent otherwise; Jod'mos does not have infiltration ability. The romulan version of Picard and Data do not have infiltration icons. And they would both make more sense than Joran.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#413798
Zef'No wrote:We can't start throwing infiltration icons around like confetti.
Should Data have a Fed infiltration icon just because he impersonated Picard's voice a couple of times?
Should Benjamin Sisko have a NA infiltration icon just because he once pretended to be a Kobheerian (Second Skin)?
Well, now you're getting into main character stuff, and our rule with mains is almost always "only give them skills they generally demonstrate across multiple stories." The exception is when we grab a main character and do a card based on one narrow slice of that character, one single story.

If you made a Data based specifically on the Data from "Brothers" (please don't do this, Design; we have more than enough Datas already), then, yes, give him the infiltration icon. If you make a new, generic version of The Doctor, he definitely should not be an infiltrator, because that's not who The Doctor was on a week-to-week basis. But if you make The Doctor from "Renaissance Man," or "Message in a Bottle," you'd better give him an infiltration icon, because that's what the whole episode's about.

Joran, of course, is not a main, so we don't run into that problem.

It's also worth considering Joran's appearance in "Field of Fire" (I know that made Slayer07's head explode). Throughout that episode, he is secretly riding along with Ezri, who absolutely does not tell anybody about it, and effectively serving as a Federation security officer without the Federation actually knowing about it. That's not throwing around infiltration icons like confetti; it's interpreting a significant amount of Joran's series-long screen time in a manner compliant with the (fairly broad) rules of the infiltration icon.

I'm also inclined to interpret the icon broadly because, if we interpret it too narrowly, it may become impossible for the game to ever get infiltration icons for certain affiliations. Like, one of these days, I'd really like to get a Kazon infiltrator, and the best candidate that comes to my mind is Tom Paris from "Investigations." But if we say that an infiltrator has to be part of a major operation and it has to actually work to count (Paris didn't convince anybody)... that becomes a lot harder to justify.
User avatar
 
By Zef'No
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#413799
BCSWowbagger wrote:It's also worth considering Joran's appearance in "Field of Fire" (I know that made Slayer07's head explode). Throughout that episode, he is secretly riding along with Ezri, who absolutely does not tell anybody about it, and effectively serving as a Federation security officer without the Federation actually knowing about it. That's not throwing around infiltration icons like confetti; it's interpreting a significant amount of Joran's series-long screen time in a manner compliant with the (fairly broad) rules of the infiltration icon.
I don't agree with that at all. He was essentially just a voice in Ezri's head.
While you may have a point about not being too narrow, there still needs to more to it than that.

An infiltrator has to actually infiltrate:

infiltrate verb [ with obj. ]
1 enter or gain access to (an organization, place, etc.) surreptitiously and gradually, especially in order to acquire secret information: the organization has been infiltrated by informers.
• introduce (someone) into an organization, place, etc. surreptitiously, in order for them to acquire secret information. they infiltrated an agent into the factory...

Not all affiliations have infiltrators; nor should they necessarily.
If the concept gets watered down too much it becomes meaningless.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#413802
Zef'No wrote:While you may have a point about not being too narrow, there still needs to more to it than that.
And there is more to it than that! An infiltrator has to be able to convince somebody of an alternate identity for at least five seconds. :)
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#413803
BCSWowbagger wrote:
If you made a Data based specifically on the Data from "Brothers" (please don't do this, Design; we have more than enough Datas already), then, yes, give him the infiltration icon. If you make a new, generic version of The Doctor, he definitely should not be an infiltrator, because that's not who The Doctor was on a week-to-week basis. But if you make The Doctor from "Renaissance Man," or "Message in a Bottle," you'd better give him an infiltration icon, because that's what the whole episode's about.

Joran, of course, is not a main, so we don't run into that problem.

It's also worth considering Joran's appearance in "Field of Fire" (I know that made Slayer07's head explode). Throughout that episode, he is secretly riding along with Ezri, who absolutely does not tell anybody about it, and effectively serving as a Federation security officer without the Federation actually knowing about it. That's not throwing around infiltration icons like confetti; it's interpreting a significant amount of Joran's series-long screen time in a manner compliant with the (fairly broad) rules of the infiltration icon.

I'm also inclined to interpret the icon broadly because, if we interpret it too narrowly, it may become impossible for the game to ever get infiltration icons for certain affiliations. Like, one of these days, I'd really like to get a Kazon infiltrator, and the best candidate that comes to my mind is Tom Paris from "Investigations." But if we say that an infiltrator has to be part of a major operation and it has to actually work to count (Paris didn't convince anybody)... that becomes a lot harder to justify.
Uh actually I disagree that Message in a Bottle Doctor would have an infiltration icon. Picard and Data don't have any from their time in Unification, granted slightly different circumstances but they ruined Romulan plots all the same. As much as I like the FOF point as it's been said we are doing Facets Joran. Save the infiltration icon for that other version if it happens.

You want a Tom Paris to infiltrate the Kazon? Fair, I want a Chakotay to infiltrate the Viidians as we saw on Faces(?). And a [Fed] [Hir] Janeway from The Killing Game, plus a Klingon Janeway. The last isn't relevant I just wanted to say it but Chakotay fooled one person before becoming exposed so we can't really be too picky on infiltration icons. Oh and perhaps a federation infiltrating Tierna, brief as that was. But all of those are as 'long term' as operations could get in the [1E-DQ] .
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#413804
I'm with Zef. Kill ALL the icons EVERYWHERE

OR...

How about a Zhian'tara icon? What's it do? Who the hell knows? It took 7 Years for the [Bar] icon to get paid off, so it's not like we're blazing a new broken link trail here or anything? Maybe get Mael to add it to the bbcode: [z]?

That could be fun.... :wink:
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#413805
Armus wrote:I'm with Zef. Kill ALL the icons EVERYWHERE

OR...

How about a Zhian'tara icon? What's it do? Who the hell knows? It took 7 Years for the [Bar] icon to get paid off, so it's not like we're blazing a new broken link trail here or anything? Maybe get Mael to add it to the bbcode: [z]?

That could be fun.... :wink:
Ignoring the pain it would be to invent a new icon for (possibly) one card I always figured Zhian'tara related stuff would be in the lore.
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