[Caretaker's Guest]

Probably stupid question. The Dom/Car Treaty is seedable and a hidden agenda. If I take first turn in a game can I reveal it and make use of it right from the start or do I have to wait one turn?

[RouterPlaner]

You may activate a hidden agenda card by
turning it face up at any time, between other
actions or as a valid response to another
action (see actions – step 2: responses).
Activating a hidden agenda does not
suspend play. (A seeded hidden agenda may
not be activated until after the play phase
begins.) This immediately activates the
card’s game text. If there are any conditions
specified by the card, you must meet them
at this time (if you cannot, you must
immediately turn the card face down again).
Once activated, the card remains face up.

[BCSWowbagger]

^ In other words, you must seed the treaty face-down, but you can reveal it as the first action of your first turn, and it immediately goes into effect. (Or you can do it immediately after your opponent's first action of his first turn.)

So there's no wait! Have fun!

[Caretaker's Guest]

Thanks guys!

[Worf Son of Mogh]

Of note the one main limitation that remain would be with AMS in the seed phase in that the people must go to a compatible outpost so no romulans to Cardi ourpostvwith thier hidd n treaty for eg.

[Not_always_but_often]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

It seems like an extra bit of annoying bookkeeping (with annoying minor restrictions like the AMS issue), since thematically it isn't particularly different to start with the treaty revealed or flip it at the first possible moment.

[AllenGould]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

Simplicity, mostly. A better question would be: why is a treaty HA in the first place?

[nobthehobbit]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

Simplicity, mostly. A better question would be: why is a treaty HA in the first place?

Flavour, mostly.

[AllenGould]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

Simplicity, mostly. A better question would be: why is a treaty HA in the first place?

Flavour, mostly.

I'm trying to think of I've ever heard of anyone finding even a theoretical case for wanting to hide a treaty.

[BCSWowbagger]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

Simplicity, mostly.

I agree this was the intent. But do you think it was successful? It adds a sometimes-complicated extra timing step for players who just want to use their Turn 1 Defend Homeworld download.

I've come to believe that it's more intuitive to just let them hit the table face-up if desired. Insert "you may" where appropriate in the Glossary entry and let people play 'em however feels right.

Problem with that is, in high-level play, the timing of hidden agendas (especially Q the Referee and Containment Field) can have a major impact on gameplay, and I suspect letting HAs hit the table face-up would make cards (particularly CF) more powerful than they already are.

[Boffo97]

The treaty does fit the episode. Everyone thought the Cardassians were on the Alpha Quadrant side when they suddenly fly off with the Dominion to Cardassia and announce they have a treaty now.

[AllenGould]

So the rulebook is pretty clear on that you can't seed a hidden agenda face-up, but...Is there a reason you can't?

Simplicity, mostly.

I agree this was the intent. But do you think it was successful? It adds a sometimes-complicated extra timing step for players who just want to use their Turn 1 Defend Homeworld download.

I'd say the rule of "HAs play face down" is simpler. The problem is that this card doesn't really have a reason to want to be facedown - so you jump through the "surprise plot!" hoop for no good reason.

In short - it's a problem with this specific card, not with the mechanic.

[Not_always_but_often]

[

I'd say the rule of "HAs play face down" is simpler. The problem is that this card doesn't really have a reason to want to be facedown - so you jump through the "surprise plot!" hoop for no good reason.

In short - it's a problem with this specific card, not with the mechanic.

You're probably right. It just always seemed a little weird in my mind that if you play a HA normally (or seed it) it is required to go face down, but if you special download the same card, it is required to go face up.

[AllenGould]

[

I'd say the rule of "HAs play face down" is simpler. The problem is that this card doesn't really have a reason to want to be facedown - so you jump through the "surprise plot!" hoop for no good reason.

In short - it's a problem with this specific card, not with the mechanic.

You're probably right. It just always seemed a little weird in my mind that if you play a HA normally (or seed it) it is required to go face down, but if you special download the same card, it is required to go face up.

That's a different rule, though. You have to reveal a downloaded card because you have to prove that you actually downloaded the card you were allowed to.

Arguably it should still go face-down, but someone must have decided that there's not a lot left "hidden" at that point? (And since you're suspending play, probably you're going to flip it over immediately anyway, so why not?)

[BCSWowbagger]

I'd say the rule of "HAs play face down" is simpler. The problem is that this card doesn't really have a reason to want to be facedown - so you jump through the "surprise plot!" hoop for no good reason.

In short - it's a problem with this specific card, not with the mechanic.

I think it's a problem with a lot of specific cards, then. There are tons of HAs I'd often or always like to play face-up: Crossover: An Invitation, Q the Referee, Containment Field, Mirror Image, Bribery, Crossover (original flavor), Expert Pilot, the aforementioned Defend Homeworld, Quark's Isolinear Rods in 90% of the cases where I use it, Taking Charge, The Art of Diplomacy, Engage Cloak, Pants of the Tal Shiar, Remote Interference, Seek Out New Life...

There are, like, 15 things I'd change about the rules before changing this, but it pops into my head regularly anyway.