[Shepard]

This came up in a recent game: if a player’s draw deck is empty, can they still do actions that happen “in place of a card draw” when they would otherwise be able to draw a card? Or is having a card in the draw deck a necessary precondition to using such abilities ( i.e. you need an actual card you are able to draw that you opt not to draw in favour of a “in place of card draw” action, which is essentially the cost of that action)?

[AllenGould]

I'm not sure it's ever come up, but I don't think there's anything saying you still don't get "a card draw" to replace.

[Jono]

From the Glossary:
card draw – A card draw refers to any card drawn from your draw deck (or from your discard pile, if using Carlos’ skill; but not from a side deck), either as the player’s end-of-turn draw(s) or through the use of a card that specifies that you “draw cards,” such as Kivas Fajo – Collector. (Cards chosen from your deck using a Betazoid Gift Box are not “drawn.”) Each card draw is a separate action.
An action that is “in place of one card draw” may replace any card draw.

My unofficial ruling would be:
Because the definition of a card draw is actually the action of drawing a card "from your draw deck" - you must have a card in your draw deck to draw if you want to replace it "in place of one card draw"...

[Armus]

From the Glossary:
card draw – A card draw refers to any card drawn from your draw deck (or from your discard pile, if using Carlos’ skill; but not from a side deck), either as the player’s end-of-turn draw(s) or through the use of a card that specifies that you “draw cards,” such as Kivas Fajo – Collector. (Cards chosen from your deck using a Betazoid Gift Box are not “drawn.”) Each card draw is a separate action.
An action that is “in place of one card draw” may replace any card draw.

My unofficial ruling would be:
Because the definition of a card draw is actually the action of drawing a card "from your draw deck" - you must have a card in your draw deck to draw if you want to replace it "in place of one card draw"...

I'd (unofficially) go the other way. If you do something in place of a card draw, such as downloading a card from your Q's Tent, then the card draw doesn't happen. The existence (or lack thereof) of a physical card in your draw deck shouldn't factor into that. The Glossary entry your cite even says that.

Either way, a definitive ruling one way or the other would help to alleviate confusion on the issue.

[pfti]

From the Glossary:
card draw – A card draw refers to any card drawn from your draw deck (or from your discard pile, if using Carlos’ skill; but not from a side deck), either as the player’s end-of-turn draw(s) or through the use of a card that specifies that you “draw cards,” such as Kivas Fajo – Collector. (Cards chosen from your deck using a Betazoid Gift Box are not “drawn.”) Each card draw is a separate action.
An action that is “in place of one card draw” may replace any card draw.

My unofficial ruling would be:
Because the definition of a card draw is actually the action of drawing a card "from your draw deck" - you must have a card in your draw deck to draw if you want to replace it "in place of one card draw"...

I'd (unofficially) go the other way. If you do something in place of a card draw, such as downloading a card from your Q's Tent, then the card draw doesn't happen. The existence (or lack thereof) of a physical card in your draw deck shouldn't factor into that. The Glossary entry your cite even says that.

Either way, a definitive ruling one way or the other would help to alleviate confusion on the issue.

If a card says “download in place of one
card draw,” you may use this ability
each time you are allowed to draw a
card.

I would say that that you can do it with an empty deck

[Jono]

If you look at the glossary entry for card draw it uses the word “drawn” - that is a past tense word of the word draw - that is what I base my unofficial ruling on... if you cannot have “drawn” a card then you can download one in play of a card draw.

[Shepard]

If a card says “download in place of one
card draw,” you may use this ability
each time you are allowed to draw a
card.

I would say that that you can do it with an empty deck

Thanks for the discussion, all, as well as for the ruling, pfti

[Borg King]

Wouldn't "in place of card draw" count as a cost? From the action entry of the Glossary:

"paying costs required by rules or game
text (e.g., using your normal card play
to report a personnel card; forfeiting a
card draw to initiate a download; using
a special download icon)."

How can you pay a cost if you don't have the resource?

Or would it be that because you aren't actually drawing a card you aren't really using that resource?

[Se7enofMine]

Without having read this thread and if this came up in a game, if go with borg King's line of thinking.

Very interesting:)

[pfti]

Wouldn't "in place of card draw" count as a cost? From the action entry of the Glossary:

"paying costs required by rules or game
text (e.g., using your normal card play
to report a personnel card; forfeiting a
card draw to initiate a download; using
a special download icon)."

How can you pay a cost if you don't have the resource?

Or would it be that because you aren't actually drawing a card you aren't really using that resource?

I would respond that the more specific downloading entry takes precedence but I will take it to the RC for futher discussion

[Takket]

don't you essentially have to have a draw deck to target to draw a card (and hence replace that draw with something else)?

Or do cards allowing you to draw (or your normal card draw) not specifically target your deck?

Examples: KFC, or the new HQ: Executive Orders

[commdecker]

Quick synopsis: I would say yes, you can do it.

I agree with this analysis:

If you do something in place of a card draw, such as downloading a card from your Q's Tent, then the card draw doesn't happen. The existence (or lack thereof) of a physical card in your draw deck shouldn't factor into that. .

Regarding Borg King's "resource" argument --

"paying costs required by rules or game
text (e.g., using your normal card play
to report a personnel card; forfeiting a
card draw to initiate a download; using
a special download icon)."

How can you pay a cost if you don't have the resource?

If you want to talk about this in terms of resources, your resource is the permission to draw a card, granted to you by the draw-to-end-your-turn rule, or by whatever other game effect you've used to get that permission. You might use that resource with a non-empty deck, in which case you get a card. You might use it with an empty deck, in which case you help trigger game end. And you might forfeit it to pay a cost, as discussed in that Glossary entry.

[frakkingoff]

If you want to talk about this in terms of resources, your resource is the permission to draw a card, granted to you by the draw-to-end-your-turn rule, or by whatever other game effect you've used to get that permission.

I think this is a really good point and the crux of the argument. Here's another example:

Borg Queen (from The Borg) has this special skill: May download any Event or Interrupt card in place of your normal card play.

I don't think anyone would argue that you can't use her special skill if your hand is empty. Or if your hand only has cards that can be played outside of normal card plays (i.e., a hand full of Interrupts).

The card play is the resource - being able actually play a card or not is irrelevant to whether you have that resource (and thus is irrelevant to whether or not you can swap that resource for another benefit).

The same is true for card draws.

[pfti]

Based on my and Matt Zino's analysis, you can do in place of a card draw actions when you have an empty deck

[Armus]

Based on my and Matt Zino's analysis, you can do in place of a card draw actions when you have an empty deck

Ok, now you're just trolling me.


At least you got the right answer.