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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#457580
If this issue has been discussed elsewhere, feel free to move and/or link it up.

(Also, it contains MAJOR, HORRIBLE spoilers, for whomever hasn't yet enjoyed these things! ;-D )

In the comic series, "Countdown", it is revealed that Data has reasserted himself over B4's inferior, 'childlike' personality. I've read somewhere, that this is further alluded to in (a) Trek novel(s).

My question: does this future, second version of Data have emotions? (And if so -- to the same extent as "Generations"-era Data?)

From the panels of "Countdown", it might be interpreted that he does not; but he could also have turned them off, since the moments in which he appears -- arguably -- require his top-most professionalism. Or he wasn't feeling very emotional.

A recap: Lore commandeered an emotions chip, which Data later retrieved, in "TNG". He installs it in "Generations". Data's 'mind' was copied unto B4's positronic brain in "Nemesis". Now, we know that the chip is a harware component. It will have perished with the original Data in "Nemesis". B4 does not have that chip. But the chip's content / firmware could have been incorporated into Data's programming, thus making it part of the neural net that was copied to B4. And B4 whistling could be a hint, not only at Data slowly reasserting himself, but also at B4 having an 'emotional urge' to do something that has, so to speak, no intrinsic value. On the other hand, he could just have 'felt like' (but not 'felt') trying out a quasi-randomly read memory block that dealt with Data's whitling efforts.


I'm looking for both speculation and "factual" semi-canon knowledge of novels and other media that I missed. Thanks! :)
Last edited by SudenKapala on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#458427
Since I'm "anxious" for your thoughts on this matter, I'll bump this by borrowing a hilarious (well, I thought so) post from the Make Dorian Collins Great Again thread:
Armus wrote:
So I think the points have all been made here, but I wanted to give this thread a bump to ask TPTB whether or not there are any plans to change the integrity on Dorian and/or anyone else?
Charlie? Paddy? Zinno?

ANY-BODY!
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#458432
Suden Kapala wrote: My question: does this future, second version of Data have emotions? (And if so -- to the same extent as "Generations"-era Data?)
Judging from how it's been handled previously, the answer will be "however the writers decide it works this week based on what their favorite version of Data is". :)
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#458434
Thanks! That is a little less factual, and a little more uncertain and messy, than I'd like. :shifty: So I'd certainly also welcome others' opinions and -- especially -- knowledge from other media. :wink:

(That being said, albeit a tad unwelcome, it sadly also sounds like an undeniable, exact, logical, and well-spoken truth. :thumbsup:
I would so wish it was different, but Trek and nitpickers were made for each other. I love everything about it -- certainly that it's so big -- and hate that the result of that is, that it's riddled with plot holes and writing-at-the-speed-of-plot. But I can be understanding of how that came to be. It's difficult making good TV, especially of such scope, I reckon. Or, it should've been started much later, and overseen from the beginning to end by just one visionary, control-freaky, genius man possesed of infinite stamina, inspiration and energy. Ah, sorry, I got carried away there. I'll get me coat.
)
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#458440
It's not at all clear to me that even the Nemesis version of Data has emotions. After he turns off his chip in First Contact, does he ever turn it on again?

Maybe Picard didn't realize that the chip could never be turned back on if turned off even once, but Data unhesitatingly followed his suggestion anyway, because he didn't want to risk letting his crew down by getting carried away with his emotions, as he did once before while facing the Borg (in "Descent"). So, in order to protect his friends, in 0.68 seconds, he made the decision to destroy his creator's last gift to him.

That one-liner about "switching off your emotion chip" isn't a continuity-covering throwaway; it's one of the most profound sacrifices ever made on the series.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#458443
BCSWowbagger wrote:It's not at all clear to me that even the Nemesis version of Data has emotions. After he turns off his chip in First Contact, does he ever turn it on again?

Maybe Picard didn't realize that the chip could never be turned back on if turned off even once, but Data unhesitatingly followed his suggestion anyway, because he didn't want to risk letting his crew down by getting carried away with his emotions, as he did once before while facing the Borg (in "Descent"). So, in order to protect his friends, in 0.68 seconds, he made the decision to destroy his creator's last gift to him.

That one-liner about "switching off your emotion chip" isn't a continuity-covering throwaway; it's one of the most profound sacrifices ever made on the series.
James you just lol triggered me with that horrible take.

I know Insurrection is your favorite TREK (let alone TNG) movie, but in case you were too busy nerd-gasming over the profundities, you overlooked the biggest unforgivable sin plot hole in the TNG movie era. If you'll recall, after Data goes rogue in the beginning and the crew is trying to figure out what happened one of the first possibilities considered is an emotion chip malfunction, which is answered with a dismissive "no, he didn't take it with him," a clear throwaway line that destroys the entire character development story that Generations spent establishing. The chip was supposed to be unremovable, forcing Data to deal with his new emotions, and adding depth to his already complex character. Instead the Insurrection writers just went "nah, fuck that noise"

That kind of bullshit move keeps Insurrection firmly in the lower half of my rankings.

That aside, you're factually wrong to boot. The Borg reactivated the emotion chip In First Contact to allow the Borg Queen to manipulate him, something she wouldn't have been able to do if he was just a fancy computer.

It's ok, I still think you're a nice guy, just go ahead and leave your nerd card on the desk on your way out. :P
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#458444
Do you know this for a "fact"? (The first part of your message, I read as being "hypothetical". The second part seems to be "convinced".)

It's a take on it that I hadn't thought of, myself (and as you can read from my OP, I did do some thinking after seeing the TV and film materials).

But I wouldn't interpret "switching off" as "permanently disabling". Then again, Picard says it, and you propose that he didn't know, and Data went along with it because he's... he's... he's INT 10 and [SD] Honour, IMO. [/hides tears in eyes]

It sounds at least possible, to me. Except for one thing -- if it really were so, and had to be a finality, I mean a thing that everybody would understand, then it would have been told in a much more profound and elaborate manner.
(Actually, I found that moment not profound, but even quite funny -- handy, that he could just turn them off, and later -- I asumed then -- on again. I think I even LOL'ed. But I was young and naive. I'm still naive.)


But on the OTHER other hand, this is where -- exactly -- Allen's comment could come in! If the weekly ideas of the writers of First Contact lay along James' quietly-epic lines, those writers could've implemented it in such a subtle way that, for next week's Insurrection, they -- or other writers -- could reinterpret the "switching off" in any way they pleased.

Great theory and/or knowledge. Thanks.
Last edited by SudenKapala on Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#458445
Armus wrote:also a great heap of very interesting and convincing things (while I was writing the above post).
Ahh... y'all are too easily able to convince me of opposite things. I'm too convincable.
Picard wrote:Perhaps it's time you switched off your convincement chip, Suden.
Käpälä, cocking head, wrote:Done.
Yes, I now remember most of the things, if not all, that Armus refers to (even remembered that I found it the same kind of silly that the chip had suddenly become removable). I'm not sure about the order of those things, however. Edit: yeah, I got it now; and regarding the chrono-factual side, I'm on board again.

In any case, we got the debate going! :D

So... from Nemesis, it would seem that his chip was removable -- because, like it or not, it's canon. Perhaps he left it aboard the E'prise when he went to rescue Picard...? Because he would want to allow B4 a chance with it, in case of his demise? Far-fetched, but possible.

Has anybody here read the novels that I've heard talk about, in which post-Nemesis Data supposedly is further fleshed out?
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Retired Moderator
#458448
Armus wrote:It's ok, I still think you're a nice guy, just go ahead and leave your nerd card on the desk on your way out. :P
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a heel turn!

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#458449
Armus wrote: I know Insurrection is your favorite TREK (let alone TNG) movie
Insurrection is the best Trek movie.

Here's my proof: name another movie where you can put in the DVD, hit "shuffle", and the plot still makes about the same amount of sense. :wink:
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Retired Moderator
#458450
AllenGould wrote:
Armus wrote: I know Insurrection is your favorite TREK (let alone TNG) movie
Insurrection is the best Trek movie.

Here's my proof: name another movie where you can put in the DVD, hit "shuffle", and the plot still makes about the same amount of sense. :wink:
Star Trek: The Motion Picture would seem to qualify. ;)
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#458452
Boffo97 wrote:
AllenGould wrote:
Armus wrote: I know Insurrection is your favorite TREK (let alone TNG) movie
Insurrection is the best Trek movie.

Here's my proof:
name another movie where you can put in the DVD, hit "shuffle", and the plot still makes about the same amount of sense. :wink:
Star Trek: The Motion Picture would seem to qualify. ;)[/quote]
Also, Star Trek: Memento.

(That was a Trek movie, wasn't it? There was a lot of time travelling. I didn't quite understand it, though.)

No, really, I love a lot that Nolan has done (Interstellar is my favourite movie ever, I think -- and that comes from someone who has read all 4 Space Odyssey books multiple times, and whom even loves the sequel film, 2010 [yes, there is a sequel; and yes, it is much better than naysayers and non-viewers would have you believe, albeit, paradoxally, a little bit more dated than 2001 -- and YES, 2001 is perfectly explainable even without the great conclusions in 2010; there's a relatively short novel, for crying out loud, the understanding of which makes the first movie even BETTER]) (that must've been the most elaborate sub-sentence that I wrote all week) (it's not as if I have strong feelings about such things), but Memento was a bit too cryptic for me. However, I did appreciate it in the end.

Back to topic.
Did TARS have emotions, post-Sol(y)aris?

No, wait.
Did SAL-9000 have emotions, post-Sunshine?

:? 8)
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#458453
Boffo97 wrote:
AllenGould wrote: Here's my proof: name another movie where you can put in the DVD, hit "shuffle", and the plot still makes about the same amount of sense. :wink:
Star Trek: The Motion Picture would seem to qualify. ;)
I've never tried watching Motion Picture on shuffle. (makes note)
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#458523
Armus wrote:James you just lol triggered me with that horrible take.
Sed contra: my take is great.
I know Insurrection is your favorite TREK (let alone TNG) movie
Correction: it's my favorite movie, period. But I've always admitted that it's a deeply flawed movie. Unlike the seamless perfection of Star Trek II, Insurrection is a mixture of extreme highs and complete bunglement, where the good parts just happen to be good enough to outweigh the bad.
"no, he didn't take it with him," a clear throwaway line that destroys the entire character development story that Generations spent establishing. The chip was supposed to be unremovable, forcing Data to deal with his new emotions, and adding depth to his already complex character. Instead the Insurrection writers just went "nah, fuck that noise"

That kind of bullshit move keeps Insurrection firmly in the lower half of my rankings.
Fair. I should have double-checked the movie transcript before offering my spur-of-the-moment fan theory. But then you never would have seen my beautiful, poignant, spur-of-the-moment (and, it turns out, wrong) fan theory, and the world would be a lesser place for it.

Anyway, I dunno how you can hold Insurrection to account for chucking Generations out the window (it does) without also holding FC to account for also chucking Generations out the window (it does, although in general it does a much better job developing Data so it's less of a problem).

This is a good example, though, of the "complete bunglement" referenced above.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#458525
What does "bunglement" mean?
BCSWowbagger wrote:Fair. I should have double-checked the movie transcript before offering my spur-of-the-moment fan theory.
I hereby take some responsibility for that, because using the word "anxious", I requested an expedient answer. :P
BCSWowbagger wrote:But then you never would have seen my beautiful, poignant, spur-of-the-moment (and, it turns out, wrong) fan theory, and the world would be a lesser place for it.
Agreed, I am quite glad to have read it.
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