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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
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#466397
You guys are all hobusly wrong!

Star Trek: Picard will be a holodeck programm in which BeefStew and Chef Riker will have cooking and brewing contests between various alpha quadrant species. Romulan Ale vs Klingon blood wine. Bajoran Jumja Sticks vs Vulcan Plomek Soup.
I've seen a bunch of people talking about mainstream audiences. According to Gordon Ramsay nothing appeals more to dumb fuckers than cooking.

The brainless cunts of CBS will make Trek great again by making Patrick Stewart cook.

You heard it here first!
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#466398
Ooh, numberwang time! :)
BCSWowbagger wrote: (1) Drastically reduce the population estimate for Romulus. It's a 24th Century interstellar empire; they have reliable birth control and don't need to pack 18 billion people onto a planet, so their population is likely lower than ours, rather than three times higher.
I thought about using Earth's 7 billion currently, but that still puts you in multi-century range (and Google gave me a "official" enough answer).
(2) Use the Battle of Cardassia fleet (whose size can only be estimated, but it's a lot more than 40 ships) as your baseline military fleet.
I couldn't find a number for the Chin'toka fleets (which was my first thought for "what's the most hardware the Alpha Quadrant can get in one place). But a lot of those ships aren't big space-cities like a Galaxy - you're not fitting 15,000 people on a K'Vort or a Defiant, for instance.
(3) Really really press those per-ship population limits, going beyond the tech manual specs.
My skimming of the tech manual was that the limits were the "oh god we need to evacuate the colony" hard limits. Also, I don't think the per-ship capacity is the biggest problem (but I'll get to that in a minute)
(4) Assume a very large civilian fleet consisting of much smaller ships -- but tens of thousands of them. If the richest 2% of Romulans own small family interstellar space yachts, and each yacht can comfortably fit one family but can squeeze aboard five families in a pinch, that's 10% of your problem right there -- and that's before you start looking at cargo ships, the merchant marine, and so forth.
That is true, and I kinda hinted at that in "Galaxy-equivalents" (since there's only what, 6-10 Galaxy-class ships?) The problem is that civilian ships are also going to be slower to load and slower to travel, which really cuts down their overall throughput. (And presumably don't have a 15x redundancy in their life support!)
(5) Assume bigger starships are available in 2387 than in 2364 (when the Galaxy-class launched), with more evacuation space available (see point #3).
I don't know if this is a safe assumption - the -E is longer, but is also shorter and doesn't have the whole "families in space" thing going. Meanwhile a lot of the other "new" ships are smaller/more specialized.
(6) Speaking of which, some of those Dominion War era battleships looked pretty darn big. So maybe the Jem'Hadar are helping the evacuation.
Sadly, we never get any good stats on a Trek troop transport, which would be exactly the type of ship you'd be after.
(7) Assume the fleet's main starships are retrofitted to support more rapid evacuation, and/or...

(8) ...that there are specially-designed frigates dedicated to supporting planetary evacuation, for example a ship that is just a giant pattern buffer which does nothing but beam thousands of people per minute directly from the surface to the interior of other ships. (This can't be the first time in Federation history that a planet has needed evacuating, after all).
Well, retrofitting requires time, which goes back to scale - if you have years, it may well be worth customizing some ships.

But you do reference one of the big chokepoints - it's not that a Galaxy only holds 15k people, it's that it takes 12 hours to do it. (And then presumably 12 more to get them off.) If there's a starbase in orbit, then maybe having everyone walk in rather than beam? (How long does it take to get 15k people through GenCon registration?)

The nastier one though is the travel time, and I snuck a really big cheat in there by saying they were only traveling one light year. If we use Earth, our closest system is 4 light years, which means we lose two days to travel instead of half.

And if we push the speed from Warp 9 to 9.6, that brings the time to 17 hours, but the D is only rated to run that speed for 12 hours. (And since it's gonna do that run over and over and over, we can't pull a Miracle Worker here.)

But on the "up-side", there's really no reason why the Entire Romulan Fleet isn't involved here, and if the timeline is more than a couple months, that's enough time for every ship of reasonable size to be hauled in from Federation space as well. I'm still gonna say you ain't getting everyone off the rock in time, though - at some point you hit global-warming timescales where people stop believing it's gonna happen. ;)

(Unless the plot demands it, *obviously* :cheersL: )
If the timeline is days, not months, though, I don't care if you have a Death Star: you're going to be drawing straws for survivors rather than evacuating everybody.
Oddly, I kinda want to see that week-scale evacuation - where there's not enough time to get remotely everyone off, but more than enough time to argue about who gets to go...

But looking into this really does illustrate how little we know about the actual numbers of Star Trek...


edit (because I hit "post" and got "there's been replies"): higher warp helps a little (but only for military vessels - Voyager is specifically built to Go Fast, but B'ob's vacation yacht won't be), but if we're gonna start hauling in new tech? Transwarp Conduits, baby. ;)
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By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Community Contributor
#466399
AllenGould wrote:but if we're gonna start hauling in new tech? Transwarp Conduits, baby. ;)
Why Transwarp Conduit? If you're saying the biggest slowdown is in loading and then offloading all of those people, and the travel time is pretty small in comparison, then cut out the travel time entirely and cut the load/unload time in half. Subspace Transporters. Just beam everybody to the nearest other planet directly. Then it just becomes a question of how many transporter pads can you get in orbit to start grabbing people and throwing them across systems.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#466400
Maelwys wrote:Subspace Transporters. Just beam everybody to the nearest other planet directly. Then it just becomes a question of how many transporter pads can you get in orbit to start grabbing people and throwing them across systems.
Ooh, that's the money right there. :)

OK, more math.

Assuming that we can refit all transporters to go Subspace, then we get the full 1250/hr throughput (and the capacity issue is moot, because we're not actually putting them on board; our limit is strictly transporter cycle time).

(Sticking with the 16B and 40 ship numbers just to keep things Tulaberry-to-Tulaberry)

So, going with the seven-year plan, each ship can now transport 76,702,500 people, which means you only need 209 Galaxy-equivalents. (Down from 625 before).

Also has the advantage of being able to send folks to multiple destinations (because 16b is a *lot* of immigration!). And if your destination is out of range (the ep says "20 min at warp 9"), you can always pull a McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gate Bridge and have ships stationed at intervals to bounce folks further.
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By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Community Contributor
#466406
AllenGould wrote:
Maelwys wrote:Subspace Transporters. Just beam everybody to the nearest other planet directly. Then it just becomes a question of how many transporter pads can you get in orbit to start grabbing people and throwing them across systems.
Ooh, that's the money right there. :)

OK, more math.

Assuming that we can refit all transporters to go Subspace, then we get the full 1250/hr throughput (and the capacity issue is moot, because we're not actually putting them on board; our limit is strictly transporter cycle time).

(Sticking with the 16B and 40 ship numbers just to keep things Tulaberry-to-Tulaberry)

So, going with the seven-year plan, each ship can now transport 76,702,500 people, which means you only need 209 Galaxy-equivalents. (Down from 625 before).

Also has the advantage of being able to send folks to multiple destinations (because 16b is a *lot* of immigration!). And if your destination is out of range (the ep says "20 min at warp 9"), you can always pull a McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gate Bridge and have ships stationed at intervals to bounce folks further.
This whole thread suddenly reminds me of a What If?
Moral of the story is... it takes a really long time to move a whole lot of people. ;-)
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#466445
AllenGould wrote:And if we push the speed from Warp 9 to 9.6, that brings the time to 17 hours, but the D is only rated to run that speed for 12 hours.
Sure, but every ship we saw built after 2370 was built to run several times faster than that, indefinitely -- and THIS is taking place in 2387! You can really hammer that travel time down if you don't tie yourself down to stats that are a quarter-century out of date (just because we have better stats from back then).

And the shorter the trip, the higher your evac capacity. The Tech Manual capacity estimates were for a two-day round trip, which means you need sleeping facilities, you need food, you need sanitation, you need a place for people to stretch their legs.

But if you're only keeping people aboard for one hour instead of two days (which seems very realistic even without any large advances in tech, just following whatever's the equivalent of Moore's Law for warp engines), you can pack 'em in standing-room-only, fill the cargo bays, the corridors, cetacean ops, everything -- and take two, three, maybe five times as many refugees as the ship's rated maximum. Life support may be strained, and it will be very unpleasant for everyone... but it'll work, and you have the entire hour-long trip home to replenish your air (and clean up any messes from kids who couldn't hold it for an hour).

Again: there is zero chance that the Federation has never had to deal with a planetary evacuation of a large planet before. They will have support ships for this. The fact we don't have stats for them doesn't mean they don't exist. (It just means we can't make cards of them!) The people making the show have the canonical authority to wave them into existence, and that's not even cheating.

So my math looks like this:

Romulus and Remus have a combined population of 4 billion. 10% of those are rescued by personal transports that leave Romulus and don't return to help out more.

We're at 3.6 billion remaining. An armada consisting of the Federation military, the Romulan military, portions of the Klingon military, many Federation civilian ships conscripted into service (the capacity on those cargo ships!! the mothballed troop transports!!), every Romulan civilian spaceship that's remotely spaceworthy anywhere in the quadrant (except personal yachts), and a smattering of ships from minor powers (Tholia, Breen, Ferenginar) comes to rescue them. All told, there are some 15,000 starships here. Given what we saw during the Dominion War, and given a decade to rebuild after the War, this is plausible.

However, since most of those ships aren't Galaxy-class or similar dreadnoughts, and many of them are MUCH smaller than dreadnoughts, this giant force is only equivalent to about 7,500 dreadnoughts. Many of them are stuck in support roles of various kinds, because this is a logistical nightmare. Our effective force is equivalent to 7,000 dreadnoughts.

The average dreadnought (or collection of ships equal to one dreadnought), when absolutely pressed to the wall, can support 25,000 evacuees, standing room only. With help from support ships, it can load 6,250 people per hour, so it's a 4-hour loading time.

It needs to drop them off on a planet one light-year away. While the fastest ships in the fleet can sustain speeds of Warp 9.9999+ (now called Warp 13), the average maximum sustainable speed, in these enlightened times, is Warp 9.975 -- something even 15-year-old midrange explorers like the Intrepid could manage. Ignoring online warp speed calculators -- which are rubbish because the warp scale, canonically, doesn't actually make sense -- we can reasonably assert, with canonical support, that this is equivalent to 9700 times faster than light. The round trip takes 108 minutes for the average ship in our ragtag fleet.

So, 4 hours loading, 50 minutes in transit, 4 hours unloading, 50 minutes in transit, that's 9.8 hours for a dreadnought to move 25,000 people to safety and return. We have the equivalent of 7,000 dreadnoughts working here, so that's 125 million Romulans moved every 9.8 hours, or 17.9 million Romulans per hour.

Romulus will be evacuated in 8 days, 9 hours, 7 minutes, 2 seconds.

Heck, go ahead and remove 90% of my fleet. Knock us down to just 1500 total ships from the entire galaxy, for an effective force equivalent to 750 dreadnoughts, with some of them in support roles. We'll still clear out Romulus in just over two months.

So this isn't crazy. It'd be a monumental humanitarian task, but it could be done -- if you make the set of perfectly valid, completely defensible assumptions about canon that happen to coincide with the assumptions that make these numbers work.

EDIT: Subspace Transporter relays are good, too -- better, even, but probably not as dramatic, ergo less likely to be the solution on The Picard Show.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#466452
2 problems I see with that, Wowbagger, which I'm sure you'll be able to deal with.

How much surface space would ships take up, that in total could transport 400M people? How much heat would they generate and pollution would they stir up at near-simultaneous take-off-- (oh wait, we don't care 'bout that no more). And where were they stored?

And I understand why the Ferengi would participate. But why would the Breen or the Tholians help?

I still think the Romulan Star Empire is doomed unless you are able to draw the Breen and Tholians into the effort.

Please elaborate on your plans regarding that issue. (You may use Garak. He has a good track record in these matters.)
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By Nerdopolis Prime (Nerdopolis Prime)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#466459
Transporters always have more space than exploration vessels or warships. Guess there are more transporters then the other two combined.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#466531
Suden Kapala wrote:How much surface space would ships take up, that in total could transport 400M people? How much heat would they generate and pollution would they stir up at near-simultaneous take-off-- (oh wait, we don't care 'bout that no more). And where were they stored?
Right now, on Earth, today, there are an estimated 1 billion passenger cars and some 300 million commercial vehicles. We have enough cars to carry the entire human population of Earth -- with plenty of room to spare.

What I'm proposing on Romulus is quite a bit less drastic. A mere 50M or so interstellar passenger vehicles -- runabouts, shuttlecraft, and so forth -- carrying an average of 8 people apiece. There'd stored in garages and small spacedocks (like marinas) and the produce as much pollution as any shuttlecraft... which is to say, probably a lot less than my minivan!
But why would the Breen or the Tholians help?
Alliances, dear boy, alliances! Helping is a cheap and easy way to score political points and incur debts -- debts the surviving Romulan Star Empire will need to pay off at some point. (And, remember, the Romulans have a Star Empire. The homeworld is being blown up; as far as we know, the rest of the Empire is fine. Most living Romulans are unlikely to be directly affected by this catastrophe.)

Garak, sadly, is likely still busy on Cardassia Prime. I left the Cardies out of this one specifically because the end of the Dominion War left them devastated. Even with a Marshall Plan or equivalent, I don't think they have enough of a military by 2387 to even think about helping out with this in any significant way. They might send a token group.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#466980
AllenGould wrote:
Data's Socks wrote:Still stoked about it, but couldn't help but raise an eyebrow at the implication of yet another sad future for a character.
Well, "people living peaceful uneventful lives" doesn't really make good TV. :)
Just you watch as Picard phases out of corporeal existence with a look of contentment on his face! It's cool though, he's channeled his share of Miles and pulled through each time.

Also, really curious to know more about the destruction of Romulus.
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 - Delta Quadrant
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#474437
New trailer from SDCC. I'm really excited for this! Too bad it will be on a different streaming channel. Hopefully Amazon will have a free month subscription here in the Netherlands somewhere.
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
#474439
WeyounsLastClone wrote:New trailer from SDCC. I'm really excited for this! Too bad it will be on a different streaming channel. Hopefully Amazon will have a free month subscription here in the Netherlands somewhere.

I said "OH MY GOD!" three-quarters of the way through the trailer... you know the moment :cheersL:
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474442
Jono wrote:I said "OH MY GOD!" three-quarters of the way through the trailer... you know the moment :cheersL:
No!? WHICH ONE? I wanted to yell "YEAH!" at least 3x! :o :o :o
Spoilers:
Old Data, new Data, Annika, Borg cube (but... blue!?) = 4x jolt of "this must be getting AWESOME!" Also, nice that river Tam is also back in the fold! 8) :P :wink:
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By jjh (Johnny Holeva)
 - First Edition Art Manager
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#474443
jjh wrote:I hate to over-hype anything in 2019 but…

… this is going to be the Greatest Thing in the History of the Universe.

Make it so.
Me:
[Watches new trailer]

[gathers composure]

[figures out how to budget for CBS AllAccess]
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