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By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#598001
Was anyone else just as irritated as they were happy with the last episode?

Did they REALLY pull the 'fly inside the death star' garbage? Could you be any LESS creative? Gtfo. Also, the Borg managed to build an entire transwarp gateway on Jupiter with no one noticing? The Enterprise found it in 3 seconds from a billion light years away. So lazy. With how Trek, in general, has treated the Borg, I never want to see them again. Bunch of children getting slapped around like a soccer ball. Also, thanks for making the changelings into mere errand boys for the Borg. Yeah, I know, renegade Founders ... means to an end ... whatever. Its dumb.


Having said that ...
There were some undeniably wonderful moments. The poker game, the heart warming scenes with the TNG crew, Picard/Jack in Unimatrix, etc. Seven getting her captaincy and cutting away before her big 'engage' moment. So so awesome. And, again, Frakes is the man. Id watch him make donuts. He is absolutely amazing. Also also .. why does Levar Burton still look like he is 30 years old? Good for him. Spiner was also incredible.


And another thing ...
so it would seem that deaths mean nothing in Trek, just like in MCU. Data has died eleventy times. Picard died. Q was dying (hi end credit sequence. I'm fully expecting Captain Shaw back cause a) super popular and b) cause fuck you, thats why.


With the Section 31 series green lit, I'm hoping that something 'post-Picard' will happen. Seems almost assured with how Picard ended.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#598009
So on the point about
finding the cube on Jupiter. First off, it is well established that the big red spot if diminishing. It is predicted to be long gone by this time in Trek. It has been around for centuries, so I'll allow it as a fun plot thingy. The cube is squarely lodged in it, but when it blows up, the cube is mysteriously no longer in it. Dafuq?


Yes, I was touched by
the voiceover from President Anton Chekov. This is an homage to Anton Yelchin who played Pavel Chekov in the Kelvenverse, voice by Walter Koenig, who played the TOS Chekov. I especially loved the voice transition from his normal Bester-y voice into his Chekov voice, props all around!


So you are looking forward to
a Shawback Redemption?
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By Cartagia
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#598195
Se7enofMine wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:07 am And another thing ...
so it would seem that deaths mean nothing in Trek, just like in MCU. Data has died eleventy times. Picard died. Q was dying (hi end credit sequence. I'm fully expecting Captain Shaw back cause a) super popular and b) cause fuck you, thats why.
As a Doctor Who watcher the bit with
Q
didn't bother me at all, especially since
he brought up that he's non-linear
.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#598201
Cartagia wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:59 am As a Doctor Who watcher the bit with
Q
didn't bother me at all, especially since
he brought up that he's non-linear
.
Yep, that made it totally work for me *and* fixed issues with his scenes in S2.
Why is he dying alone, when he has a wife and kid? Because his timeline is very different from ours. This could be a Q that's been around to see the end of the universe and back multiple times and is finally ending.
 
By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#598212
My overall issue with it is just that no death feels final anymore. There is no weight to any of these scenes cause, meh, they'll just bring them back.

There is already talk about bringing Shaw back as an ECH. Sure, its just fan talk but fuuuuuuuck, enough already. I LOVED the Shaw character and was disappointed he died but his death didnt hit me because I knew this crap might happen again. That last scene in S2 between Picard and Q was so ... SO beautiful. I was legit crying. Now it feels tainted. As I say, Data is on life #8472 (yeah, on purpose), Picard .. so, yeah, I fully expect them to drum up some hot mess and bring Shaw back cause, why not?


Anywho, it's obviously me being in the minority so I won't complain about it more. It just feels cheap to me is all.

@Cartega: your Dr. Who reference is valid but not quite the same. The whole multiple Who's is written in to the script as a feature, not a bug. I'm not certain Trek was meant to do that (or, at least, my weird brain doesnt think it should haha).
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By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#598220
Se7enofMine wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:46 am @Cartega: your Dr. Who reference is valid but not quite the same. The whole multiple Who's is written in to the script as a feature, not a bug. I'm not certain Trek was meant to do that (or, at least, my weird brain doesnt think it should haha).
I don't think the Doctor Who reference had anything to do with the multiple doctors, it struck me more as a River Song reference. She died in her first appearance on the show, but that didn't stop her from appearing over a dozen more times, and becoming an extremely popular character. It's not about Q magically coming back to life after he died in Season 2, it's that he hasn't died yet at all (from his own perspective). He's non-linear, he lives things in whatever order he wants to. Eventually, we now know, his life will lead him to seeking out Picard in 2401, and then later again in 2024, where he'll "die" (whatever that means for his species). But (from his viewpoint) that hasn't happened yet. He's still free and alive in 2402, anxious and ready to torture Picard, The Next Generation.
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By Cartagia
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#598341
Maelwys wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:22 pm
Se7enofMine wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:46 am @Cartega: your Dr. Who reference is valid but not quite the same. The whole multiple Who's is written in to the script as a feature, not a bug. I'm not certain Trek was meant to do that (or, at least, my weird brain doesnt think it should haha).
I don't think the Doctor Who reference had anything to do with the multiple doctors, it struck me more as a River Song reference. She died in her first appearance on the show, but that didn't stop her from appearing over a dozen more times, and becoming an extremely popular character. It's not about Q magically coming back to life after he died in Season 2, it's that he hasn't died yet at all (from his own perspective). He's non-linear, he lives things in whatever order he wants to. Eventually, we now know, his life will lead him to seeking out Picard in 2401, and then later again in 2024, where he'll "die" (whatever that means for his species). But (from his viewpoint) that hasn't happened yet. He's still free and alive in 2402, anxious and ready to torture Picard, The Next Generation.
Precisely what I was referring to.
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#598455
Okay. For a couple weeks, I've been thinking about what rubbed me the wrong way about the Picard finale. And, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it. I just felt like there was something missing. And what I think I've come down on is
the other six legacy characters weren't necessary.

I loved seeing them back again, excited to see how they changed and how they hadn't. I'm not one to get emotional about nostalgia (I generally want something brand new), but the Enterprise-D bridge lighting up got me. Misty-eyed. It was Cap catching Mjolnir, the thing that I didn't know I wanted to see. (And I rewatched the season. The Borg and the Enterprise-D were both name-dropped three times each in the first episode. *facepalm*) But what I wanted was for that ship and that crew to matter.

Let me explain what I mean by comparison. First of all, Picard was exactly where he was supposed to be and doing exactly what he was supposed to do. In "17 Seconds," Riker tells him that all the parenting books in the world can't prepare you for seeing your kid and knowing you'd do anything for them. (I'm sure many of the other parents here, like me, can agree.) And where was Picard in the end? Plugging himself into the Borg hive mind, the place he never wanted to return, his own personal hell, and not only that, he told his son he would stay in hell with him. Perfect writing. A little What Dream May Come?, but still powerful.

How about the rest? Riker and Worf were fighting drones. Geordi was commanding the Enterprise. Data was flying. Deanna was sensing and finding the group on the cube. Beverly was firing weapons. Now, some of that meant something. Geordi had perhaps the least connection to the Borg themselves, but the strongest connection to the present circumstances via his daughters. Beverly had to make the decision to sacrifice her own son for the rest of the galaxy. Worf has been chopping people up all season, so why not put him on the cube, I guess? But even those could be shuffled around a bit.

Rewatch the first scene of the finale again. They're warping their way into danger and formulate a plan. Everyone gets a line. Everyone contributes to the plan. But you can take any line and give it to almost any other character. Why these six? (Maybe five. It's also Beverly's kid.) Compare that to a similar scene in (and I know some people will roll their eyes) Star Trek: Beyond. The crew get separated for the movie, go on separate adventures, come back, and everyone has a piece of the puzzle that will let them win in the end. One character doesn't make it back and the crew is screwed. In that one moment, they are the perfect and only seven to win the day.

So, I'm putting on my writer's hat. Where else could the crew have gone? Riker could have been in command of the ship, mirroring his role in "The Best of Both Worlds." Does he say, "Fire," again, knowing Picard, Jack, and whomever else is aboard the cube? Hell, put Deanna there. Reverse their roles from earlier in the season. Let him have a taste of his own medicine and have Deanna lead Picard to Jack. I didn't really have problems with any of the jobs they took up (save one; give me a second to get there), but would those have been more impactful? Maybe. The one job that pissed me off? Asking Beverly to kill her own son. Now, Geordi couldn't go up and do it. It would seem self-serving. Worf? Violence being the ultimate act of pacifism? (Probably a stretch, but there's something there.) Yeah, you say, but Data had to fly the ship. Did he? Take out Geordi's line about a machine not being able to do it and anyone can. Riker? Deanna again? Let her make up for crashing the ship? But Data had a cool moment where he talked about his gut... Give him another task. Have him go with Picard. Hell, Data, Beverly, and Troi are all great members of the away team for specific skills. Riker and Worf are just burly.

But more than that, why not the other Picard cast? (We're rewriting, remember?) Why not Seven firing at the Borg? Let Rios pilot. Let Agnes go Queen to Queen (with a Seven tap in, if you need). Let Elnor slice and dice some Borg. And that's all if you don't change any substantial moments in the finale. Is it better with the legacy characters? Aboard the D? Definitely. I'm sure an argument can be made for Picard's new crew on this show, though.

What I wanted was to see the crew do something only they could do and I think I've shown that this finale didn't do that. Now, part of that could be fixed by giving them unique experiences this season (much like in Beyond), which shows the truth in the writing adage: if there's a problem in Act 3, it's in Act 1. That means more time with the characters, which might be cost-prohibitive. It means less time with the Jack mystery box (which is probably a good thing; honestly, Picard should have assumed that the Shrike wanted him for half the season until they revealed they were really after Jack) and time away from the hero ship, which also would have raised costs and taken away from new characters like Shaw. Worf and Raffi's departure from the Titan could have been something. Riker and Data's interaction on Daystrom could have been something more. Put Geordi and Beverly on the trail of the Borg mystery. And the solution should have involved more than just taking the Millennium Falcon inside the Death Star. It should have involved turning the Borg plan in on itself. I don't know how exactly, but that's what I was expecting. The Borg take Picard and make Locutus, so the TNG crew takes Locutus and use him to defeat the Borg. Satisfying. And that hopefully explains why I feel a little disappointed.

But again, I loved it. The second viewing, I really took in what the show was doing as opposed to my expectations. I'm probably crazy though, so I appreciate anyone reading this and letting me get this out of my head.
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