The second Will of the Collective led to a unique equipment, designed entirely by the community!

Which game text should be turned into a card?

Choice Alpha (+1 Dilemmas)
2
3%
Choice Beta (Decay Protection & Cycling)
4
6%
Choice Gamma (Tricycle)
No votes
0%
Choice Delta (Bonus Point Mission)
No votes
0%
Choice Epsilon (Trade 2:1)
29
41%
Choice Zeta ([TN] Transformation)
4
6%
Choice Eta (Nuke a Dilemma)
27
38%
Choice Theta (Battle to Add Skills)
2
3%
Choice Iota (Stop to Unstop)
3
4%
 
By Abbalon
 - New Member
 -  
#41857
Epsilon already exist in "Reclaim Terok Nor".

So I vote for Iota.

Because you can use only one of the two orders each turn, but multiple times the same Order. so play CAD with low cost DOM and "The Cost of Freedom"!
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By RedDwarf (Unjustly Banned)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#41860
You can all blame me for the original suggestion of an alternative to Jake Sisko for Terok Nor. I thought that this would be a good chance to create a new strategy that you could base a whole deck around - like Jake Sisko does for dissidents. I had already spent several months pondering this subject while on the design team for Raise the Stakes, but I couldn't come up with any decent ideas. My hope was that the community could succeed where I had failed.

My thoughts on the two front-runners are as follows:

Epsilon - With a little effort, this lets you combine Cardassian and Dominion strategies without the need for two headquarters. Will this really inspire anyone to build a new deck? It doesn't inspire me.

Eta - Removing dilemmas from an opponents pile is dangerous, as the dilemma pile regulates the game. However, as more and more dilemmas get released, I know that my dilemma piles are getting bigger and bigger. In combination with Tenous Alliance, this feels like a new-ish strategy, and has got me thinking about deck ideas already.

Kevin made a very good point above.
Hoss-Drone wrote:Dilemma pile destruction seems to me to be the best choice for a legitimate "alternative Strategy" for Terok Nor. To me, the focus is on "strategy". Not gimmick, not trick, and certainly not something that some other HQ does as its "primary tactic".
Eta gets my vote

:twocents:
 
By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E World Semi-Finalist 2019
2E World Top 16 2019
Professional
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2019
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2019
2E Austrian National Champion 2020
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2021
#41871
Abbalon wrote:Epsilon already exist in "Reclaim Terok Nor".
with reclaim terok nor being self-destroying AND easily prevented / destroyed / whatever, i've never seen a deck that utilizes it. with two cards of this style around, especially one that saves counters, i think this might finally be a viable option.

unless it becomes a one-off kind of card, of course. personnally, i'd rather see this gamtext as order on a personnel. something that's hard to prevent and can be used once per turn.
User avatar
 
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
#41872
Avaril wrote:I voted Epsilon. Although I think it and the other leader atm both have potential balance issues. Particularly a multiple dilemma remover that does not remove itself from the game. With some cycling cards you could potentially eliminate a small dilemma pile very quickly.
Disagree.

Would it be terrible for a small dilemma pile to get eaten? You made the dilemma pile and you would then take the risk of facing this strategy. Eta has the most elegant form of balance built into it: all you have to do to counter it is just put *anything different* into your deck. Not to mention that if you make it an event or interrupt, there are loads of ready to go counters. If you play with a small dilemma pile, then you should be aware of this and just put in Amanda Rogers or Our Death is Glory. You mention recursion - I'll mention Greasy Dukat and Karl Jaeger.

On top of that, if your goal is to truly eat the dilemma pile - then you're sitting around not doing anything and your speedy opponent leaves you in the dust.

Tenuous Alliance got the removed from the game text because it could remove 5 dilemmas at a time. This dilemma has a built in restrictor of 3 and even then, it may only get 1.
 
By Avaril
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#41930
Hoss, My issue here is not a worry about the smallest dilemma pile you can make, it is about the ability to destroy the effectiveness of bigger piles by seeing a large portion of it and destroying an integral part of it.

Only using [TN] specific cards (since it is possible to dual HQ it for even more removal of dilemma's) I am seeing without any recursion the ability to ice 15 cards with Tenous and up to 9 more with this new idea. So that is 24 cards right there. If someone has a fourty card dilemma pile (I would call that on the middle high side) then have about half their pile gone. Since at this point they've seen a large chunk of the opponents dilemma pile I am betting the rest of that pile is going to be basically useless versus them. Now add in recursive possibilities the process basically is sped up.

Dukat is a recursive counter and the best in the game. You have to draw Dukat before you can use him though. Also, he is a single character making him vulnerable to the Cardi assassin (which would be a no brainer inclusion in this deck). Dukat works great versus Borg, because they can't do much against him. Otherwise, every Borg deck out there would stock a counter versus him. Sure you could Amanda, but first you need points and then if your opponent plays recursive they still can grab it back and use it again...and again... I am betting that not many people could do the same with their Amanda.

The counter proposed is not having dupes in dilemma pile or having larger piles, both counters make whatever you are trying to do with your pile worse. Sure it will help versus this deck type, but is that a real counter? I would say no because making your deck worse versus almost all other decks is just not a great deck building strategy.
User avatar
 
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
#41942
Avaril wrote:Hoss, My issue here is not a worry about the smallest dilemma pile you can make, it is about the ability to destroy the effectiveness of bigger piles by seeing a large portion of it and destroying an integral part of it.

The counter proposed is not having dupes in dilemma pile or having larger piles, both counters make whatever you are trying to do with your pile worse. Sure it will help versus this deck type, but is that a real counter? I would say no because making your deck worse versus almost all other decks is just not a great deck building strategy.
...But isnt that what all cheating does? You attempt a mission and face your opponent's dilemmas. You see some of them, but you "cheat" past the key one(s) in order to solve the mission. Milling the dilemma pile is essentially the same thing - just done in a new way by going after it before its drawn instead of after it's played. OT kirk is another example of cheating pre-emptively. As long as your opponent gets to draw and spend - its up to him to build a dilemma pile that can withstand whats thrown at it. Be it a "facing" cheater or a "pre-emptive" cheater.

If you're worried about the effectiveness of a larger dilemma pile - I would direct you to Unexpected Difficulties, Machinations, Delirium, Endangered, Vacation from the Continuum and all the other dil pile manipulators out there.

Personally, i've seen dilemma piles that were 80 cards big work simply because they were bloated with unpredictable draws. As the game continues on, there are more and more dilemmas that are effective and bigger piles become more and more useable.

If I build a 45 card pile and my opponent nukes 24 of them, I still have 21 to work with, the good ones left in there are more likely to be drawn AND i've been more than likely putting more people on the table and working towards solving with more efficiency. So there's my counterbalance right there.
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By shagg08 (Michael O'Shogay)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#41974
Assuming Eta wins, I agree it's powerful, but we haven't seen everything else to do with the proposed card. We haven't seen the cost, we haven't seen if it's an event, interrupt, or equipment. I would reserve the talk of this being overpowered until all of that is set. There are already cards that govern how decks are created and played, Necessary Execution, Distress Call, and Agonizing Encounter come immediately to mind. All of these are dilemmas and usable in every deck. Peoples decks right now that run 35 cards with no deck recycling and face a Josephs deck with recursion or a good dissident discard deck run into problems. It's just the nature of the beast.
 
By Kangaxx
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
2E World Top 16 2019
2E Chairman's Challenge Winner 2013
#42014
I really like epsilon, but in the current setup its far to powerful:

With just 4 personnel you can simply place 3 more on your hq (the new personnel aren't stopped, so they can be used for this game again)...there needs to be a limit.

Eta sounds fun too, but I also fear that it may become too powerful once someone builds a deck that gets the card out of the discard pile...I'd suggest a "remove this card from game" at the end of the game text.
User avatar
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#42019
Kangaxx wrote:With just 4 personnel you can simply place 3 more on your hq (the new personnel aren't stopped, so they can be used for this game again)...there needs to be a limit.
You're right, I didn't even think of that ...
always assuming the personnel have the right affiliations that means:
4: +2 +1 > 7
5: +2 +1 +1 > 9
6: +3 +1 +1 > 11
7: +3 +2 +1 > 13
8: +4 +2 +1 > 15
looks like the formula (with people always having the right affiliation) is:
x->2x-1 (not counting people played normally, but also not counting that you have to have those personnel on hand)
But isn't there that Cardie event (Seal the Temple's Door) that allows you to draw 14 additional cards in a round for a mere seven dilemmas under some opponent's mission? And I don't even want to think about possibilities of combining this with the Jem'hadar Birthing Chamber (which no one except me plays with).
User avatar
 
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
#42028
Borgified Tribble wrote:
Kangaxx wrote:With just 4 personnel you can simply place 3 more on your hq (the new personnel aren't stopped, so they can be used for this game again)...there needs to be a limit.
You're right, I didn't even think of that ...
always assuming the personnel have the right affiliations that means:
4: +2 +1 > 7
5: +2 +1 +1 > 9
6: +3 +1 +1 > 11
7: +3 +2 +1 > 13
8: +4 +2 +1 > 15
looks like the formula (with people always having the right affiliation) is:
x->2x-1 (not counting people played normally, but also not counting that you have to have those personnel on hand)
But isn't there that Cardie event (Seal the Temple's Door) that allows you to draw 14 additional cards in a round for a mere seven dilemmas under some opponent's mission? And I don't even want to think about possibilities of combining this with the Jem'hadar Birthing Chamber (which no one except me plays with).
Exactly. Epsilon is the more likely of the two NOT to make it out of playtesting whereas Eta will likely just get a remove from game text.
User avatar
 
By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#42037
Simple solutions for potential Epsilon abuse:

1) Make it an interrupt. That way you can only use it as often as you draw the interrupt.
2) Add text "once per turn."
3) Vote for Iota. :D
User avatar
 
By wweist
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#42043
jjh wrote:Epsilon is the card I'd want, especially on an Equipment. Generates some much needed speed while promoting the Trek-sense of the Terok Nor episode arc - Cardassians and the Dominion working together. Outstanding. So that's my vote. Epsilon.
Just a question: Why can't Epsilon be a personnel card?
User avatar
 
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
#42048
epsilon is not a strategy. Its a gimmick. A trick. It doesn't necessarily bring you closer to winning - it just gets you more people on the table. It's like saying that Energize is a strategy.

Energize is not a strategy. Its a facilitator for getting people on the table. Weenie overload is a strategy.

Dilemma pile destruction or Dilemma removal is a strategy.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Trailblazer
#42060
wweist wrote:
jjh wrote:Epsilon is the card I'd want, especially on an Equipment. Generates some much needed speed while promoting the Trek-sense of the Terok Nor episode arc - Cardassians and the Dominion working together. Outstanding. So that's my vote. Epsilon.
Just a question: Why can't Epsilon be a personnel card?
The length of the game text makes it highly unlikely it would fit on any but the most meager personnel card.

-crp
User avatar
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#42061
jjh wrote:Epsilon is the card I'd want, especially on an Equipment. Generates some much needed speed while promoting the Trek-sense of the Terok Nor episode arc - Cardassians and the Dominion working together.
To use the immortal words of Captain Hammer: "I remember it differently."
Can you really imagine two Jemmies "stopping" themselves to get another Cardie on the station? Or vice versa?
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