[LORE]

Hello Fellow Online Combatants!

As the incoming Director of Organized Play, I would like to expand upon the tournament footprint presently being offered online via the WCT League, The Dojo, and other forms of virtual participation in STCCG. Accordingly, I would like to take the pulse of the online play community and ask you the reader if you have any interest in greater levels of high-level online play, and what your experience has been if you played in one previously. Specifically, did you play in the Online Regional Championships last year? Were there any successes or failures you are willing to share? If you haven't yet played in a high-level event online, are you interested in playing in Online Regional events happening this year? Taking this one step further, would you play in an event if the stakes were even higher, say a Masters or Continentals level tournament? Why or why not?

Please be advised, this is simply a discussion point at this stage and that nothing is set in stone. In order to move forward with a plan to bring L3 tournaments (Masters / Continentals) to those of you who would participate, we need to know how much interest there is in the community for these events upfront. The Continuing Committee would need to invest significant resources to make this happen, and the benefit needs to outweigh the cost in order for me to move forward. Above all else, we really need your feedback... both positive and negative.

So, whether you are an online fixture playing in every tournament that gets scheduled, or if you are new to the online scene but excited to play virtually, or even if you are a former online junkie who's been directed to this thread by a friend, let's hear what you have to say! The future of online play is in your hands!

[Armus]

While I'm down with the concept, there appear to be some barriers to execution.

The big one has been mentioned before: despite the overall quality functionality of Lackey, it remains very easy to cheat in a way that's not possible with a live game. Just running your mouse over some cards cause them to be visible to you and the play log means both players have easy access to a transcript of the game that can be used for strategic advantage.

Absent another platform for playing, or additional functionality in Lackey to mitigate the known issues, I worry that the temptation will be there for a L3 event that just isn't for lower level events.

Maybe I'm wrong - I hope so anyway.

There's my

[LORE]

The big one has been mentioned before: despite the overall quality functionality of Lackey, it remains very easy to cheat in a way that's not possible with a live game. Just running your mouse over some cards cause them to be visible to you and the play log means both players have easy access to a transcript of the game that can be used for strategic advantage.

Absent another platform for playing, or additional functionality in Lackey to mitigate the known issues, I worry that the temptation will be there for a L3 event that just isn't for lower level events.

Maybe I'm wrong - I hope so anyway.

There's my

Cheating or the potential to cheat has long been the primary reason Organized Play has steered clear of online activity and while I know it is a legitimate concern, the past year should have taught us that cheating and / or innocent misplays is just as easy to do in-person as it is to do online. Heck, I'm just as likely to shuffle my hand into my deck playing Tribbles with the Frozen Chosen as I am to do something equally stupid online. People can cheat. I get it. And I think it is a serious issue. I am certainly not dismissing the threat of cheating out of hand, but I am also no longer willing to accept it as the only reason we don't have high-level online play.

Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but my hope is that the prospect of ruining high-level online play for everyone else moving forward is a strong enough reason to avoid being That Guy. As Matt Frid once said, let's all remember this is a game played with pictures of little space ships... don't get too carried away. I would also hope the prospect of playing people overseas and / or those you may only come across once or twice in your tournament career is another reason participants will be on their best behavior and avoid being That Guy, rather than risk tarnishing their reputation forever and handing an NPE to a player whom they may never interact with again.

That said, anything that does happen online would follow the strictest policies as outlined in the Code of Conduct, and I envision having judges available for rules questions or to just pop into the online game tables without warning to make sure everything is on the up & up. Anything we can do to curb cheating will certainly be explored.

[BCSWowbagger]

The big one has been mentioned before: despite the overall quality functionality of Lackey, it remains very easy to cheat in a way that's not possible with a live game. Just running your mouse over some cards cause them to be visible to you and the play log means both players have easy access to a transcript of the game that can be used for strategic advantage.

The game log gives both players access to public information that both players already know. While it's not a tool that's legal or available in a face-to-face game, I have a hard time seeing it as something that gives one player an illicit, unfair advantage over another. OP should put an enforceable policy for the game log in place to clarify how it may be used, but, other than that, I think it should simply be taken as one of the ways the online environment is different (like the online time limit) and accounted for accordingly.

As for card visibility... correct me if I'm wrong, but the only ones that you can see without alerting your opponent that you've seen them is face-down cards that you yourself seeded or played. Right? So, again, it seems Lackey's functionality here is, at best, an aid to memory, not revealing any information to either player that they didn't already know.

And, finally... do we actually have any documented cases of deliberate cheating in high-level play? There's That One Incident I Don't Wish To Dredge Up Again Or Discuss Further, but even that appeared to be unintentional. Unless there's evidence that deliberate cheating is a real problem, I'm not inclined to scuttle any opportunities to play the game over the fear of it. (I mean, even in person, 1E is rife with opportunities to cheat. It would be so easy, in almost every game, to remove valid targets from random selections or switch out entire crews and away teams without your opponent knowing. But we don't, because... well, we're decent human beings.)

EDIT: And I see LORE just said basically the same thing, so, uh... I agree with him?

[Naetor]

I think online is just a slightly different environment, so plan and play accordingly. It's no more difficult to cheat in a live game, so I don't see that as a valid reason to not open up play.

What I think is necessary to do this is create a different model for online play than we currently have. The classic 'tournaments' don't translate well to online play since games are played ~1 week apart, and for me sometimes it is difficult to know if I'll have time/interest in playing 4 weeks from the start date. Maybe some people like it how it currently is, but I usually want to retire a deck after 1-2 weeks.

[Mogh, Son Of Worf]

1) It is ridiculously easy to cheat in Lackey and in comparison to live play it is absolutely undetectable, more or less impossible to catch someone redhanded or to prove cheating (unless you activate screen sharing for a third party judge, but honestly, who would volunteer for that in all tournament rounds). By loading the autosave file from another client you can reveal all the cards in the game and decks without the opponent knowing any of this.

While I don't think people really cheat in low stakes online games, there are players I would not want to play for higher stakes in this format. I witnessed (and heard of) cheating in live tournaments, but live I feel I have more of a chance to keep an eye on "risky" players. Everyone can pretend that they don't care about the stakes and we all play for fun, and for most players this is the case, but there are also enough players that just want to win.

2) What exactly are the "significant resources" that are necessary to make this happen? Isn't an online tournament way easier from an organizational point than a live tournament for the CC? You basically need the one guy that runs it. For this guy it may be a lot of work (more than for a judge in a live tournament). But apart from that what are the resources needed?

[BCSWowbagger]

By loading the autosave file from another client you can reveal all the cards in the game and decks without the opponent knowing any of this.

Well, yeah, alright, that's pretty bad. I did not know about that.

[LORE]

1) It is ridiculously easy to cheat in Lackey and in comparison to live play it is absolutely undetectable, more or less impossible to catch someone redhanded or to prove cheating (unless you activate screen sharing for a third party judge, but honestly, who would volunteer for that in all tournament rounds). By loading the autosave file from another client you can reveal all the cards in the game and decks without the opponent knowing any of this.

While I don't think people really cheat in low stakes online games, there are players I would not want to play for higher stakes in this format. I witnessed (and heard of) cheating in live tournaments, but live I feel I have more of a chance to keep an eye on "risky" players. Everyone can pretend that they don't care about the stakes and we all play for fun, and for most players this is the case, but there are also enough players that just want to win.

I have no knowledge of how you could cheat in Lackey in this manner, but will take your word for it. Again, I completely understand the concerns that cheating could transpire. I've conceded the point on cheating already, several times.

But let's step back and ask the honest question... what are we playing for that would merit cheating online versus in-person? I'm not trying to be obtuse; I really want to know what the motivation would be. At this stage of the game, we are playing largely for bragging rights and ratings points, which you mention. There's no big money purse on the line, and the biggest prize for the winner of an online Continentals (for example) would be a pair of Byes into an in-person tournament (Worlds) that they may or may not attend. Help me to understand the motivation here.

Are we as a group convinced that the spectre of cheating is a big enough reason to stop us from at least trying to bring high-level play to the online community? If the players feel that it is the case, then so be it. All I'm trying to do is create an open dialog about it right now.

2) What exactly are the "significant resources" that are necessary to make this happen? Isn't an online tournament way easier from an organizational point than a live tournament for the CC? You basically need the one guy that runs it. For this guy it may be a lot of work (more than for a judge in a live tournament). But apart from that what are the resources needed?

Online play in the current sense is generally fairly easy. Online play for a high-level tournament, and establishing safe guards to mitigate cheating and create a play environment typical of most in-person high-level tournaments, will not be. First, there are the prizes. Both utilizing CC resources to make them, and then the considerable distribution costs associated with getting them to all the players via standard shipping instead of simply handing them out as is done in person. Naturally, our Director of Communications will put time and effort into promoting the event on Social Media, and our great Art Department will probably make a banner ad promoting the event similar to what they do for the various in-person tournaments Organized Play puts on throughout the year. Speaking more to the tournament itself, apart from simply putting out pairings, we will need a dedicated team of tournament directors capable of a) checking in on games in progress and b) making rulings on questions as they arise. All of this will take a significant amount of time and effort from a team of online play advocates.

[LORE]

If you haven't weighed in on this topic yet and would like to, please consider voting and / or posting your thoughts regarding the online community getting a high-level tournament towards the end of the year. We are presently finalizing a few late additions to the tournament schedule for 2018, so please chime in if you have anything to add either in support of or against high-level play taking over the airwaves!

[Se7enofMine]

I would love to play in a high level tourney. All I need are the skills to do so

As for cheating, I'm not nearly familiar enough with Lackey to know how to do so but it would seem pointless to me personally. I don't have much of an ego and this game is a fun past time. Bragging rights in this area seem moot. But, that's me. Some people do have an ego and will act accordingly.

As Lore mentioned, there is no big prize at the end. Sure, if there was a few hundred bucks, I can understand why people WOULD cheat.

It's strange to me. This is, for the most part, a great community .. so the thought of cheating one of you seems odd to me. Despite the fact that we are mostly strangers to each other, we are all here for the love of the game. Cheating tarnishes that. But, there will always be those who think that winning trumps all.

[JeBuS]

I don't get to play online as much as I would like. But I have played a bit.

I think some aspects of Lackey usage should just be codified as "acceptable" in online play, because it's unlikely to be "fixed" ever. As was mentioned, it is basically public info and ends up working as a memory aid. (Which, for casual players, could actually be an incentive to play more).

As for the deck loading cheating, I have no idea how that works, so I can't speak to it.

But I think making high level online play a thing is a good idea.

[commdecker]

I haven't been playing online in a while due to time constraints. It's just overly hard on my schedule to set aside a 3-hour block each week, as well as worry in the days leading up to it about coordinating that 3-hour block with someone else's schedule and time zone.

But back when I was still playing, I would have loved the recognition (and badges) of a high-level event.

And more fodder for the cheating discussion -- another avenue I haven't seen mentioned is simply clicking over to the decklist tab to remind yourself what you stocked. For example, "Now that he's dead and she's captured, do I even *have* any more Geology to download?"