Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By nickyank
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2023
2E British National Champion 2021
#334035
Hello! I've started a second thread regarding the 2E Watchlist, as the first was overlong.

As of today, 13th January 2016, three cards have been removed from the Watchlist due to lack of any findings or issue with the cards. These are:

Self-Replicating Roadblock
B'aht Qul Challenge
Accession

I know there were various concerns regarding these cards, but there has been no game play issues with any of the cards since they were originally added to the list.

Two cards join the Watchlist...

Knowledge and Experience, mainly due to unlike other prevent and overcome cards, this one is not removed from the game.

Homeward Bound has been raised many times as a potentially overpowered card.

Please provide any information on these cards from tournaments or playtesting to myself, Josh Sheets prylardurden or post them on this thread.

Thanks!

Nick
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#334039
So was Crippling Strike added and subsequently removed or has it just never been added?

Edit: Nevermind, I found the link to the current watchlist. Any chance we can get a direct watchlist link somewhere obvious?

Also, I'm surprised that nobody has brought up Treasured Collectibles and/or Par Lenor with respect to recursion, given the increased popularity of the Ferengi Counter Dump decks. I'm a little new to that particular game, but based on some of the concepts I've been able to cook up in the deck lab so far, I see some potential for brokenness that I would think at least bears watching.
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By nickyank
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2023
2E British National Champion 2021
#334041
I've seen that deck played by quite a few too players, and while it's a good deck, the amount of set up required offsets all the many counters you can potentially gain... But that's the errata teams call.
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#334051
Armus wrote:So was Crippling Strike added and subsequently removed or has it just never been added?

Edit: Nevermind, I found the link to the current watchlist. Any chance we can get a direct watchlist link somewhere obvious?

Also, I'm surprised that nobody has brought up Treasured Collectibles and/or Par Lenor with respect to recursion, given the increased popularity of the Ferengi Counter Dump decks. I'm a little new to that particular game, but based on some of the concepts I've been able to cook up in the deck lab so far, I see some potential for brokenness that I would think at least bears watching.
If recurring events to get counters was a legitimate problem AWC would be the card to look at.
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By JamesValEson (Barry Windschitl)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#334062
I'll post my thoughts on the two additions in the next couple of days.

As you guys might need more eyes and minds on some of the watch cards, and as someone who has used the F $*! out of K&E, I'd like to offer thoughts on it should you need some.


Barry
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By nickyank
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2023
2E British National Champion 2021
#334071
My thoughts on K&E - I think the issue with the card isn't recursion, it's the ease with how it is now used. You need just the one assimilated guy to get this to work, and as long as you have extra points, you can use it as many times as you want. Even if it's removed from the game, you can still use it three times by getting one guy from the mission Assimilate Resistance...

I would rather it kill that assimilated personnel, so if you want to use K&E 9 times, you need nine assimilated personnel and 45 points.
K&E wrote:To play this interrupt, you must command three [Bor] personnel. When a personnel you command but do not own is facing a dilemma, kill that personnel and lose 5 points to prevent and overcome that dilemma.
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By JamesValEson (Barry Windschitl)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#334202
nickyank wrote:My thoughts on K&E - I think the issue with the card isn't recursion, it's the ease with how it is now used. You need just the one assimilated guy to get this to work, and as long as you have extra points, you can use it as many times as you want. Even if it's removed from the game, you can still use it three times by getting one guy from the mission Assimilate Resistance...

I would rather it kill that assimilated personnel, so if you want to use K&E 9 times, you need nine assimilated personnel and 45 points.
K&E wrote:To play this interrupt, you must command three [Bor] personnel. When a personnel you command but do not own is facing a dilemma, kill that personnel and lose 5 points to prevent and overcome that dilemma.
That's a good idea to make the cost a bit more, And it makes the decision to use K&E have more gamesmanship.

Is the addition of commanding three personnel that you do not own also being looked at? That way, you can't just nab one or two peeps to fuel K&E (Which is the type of splashing that seems to be an issue).

As a person who Has played Assimilation a LOT, I'd be against RFG being added. That's a Nuclear option being taken First before any others are tried (or vetted in the community). Try upping the requirements of the interrupt (add the req I described above, does that help?), then test out Nick's suggestion. But Don't just go for the Nuke Hammer right off the bat; Borg have been hit Hard enough in the recent years, and this is Probably the one Top deck type they have at their disposal (Has Mega-Crew become a thing yet?).

Also, one of the thing being used as reason for adding RFG is that it is the "Line" for such cards. Have Relic Scotty and LLKirkJ been erratad yet to fall in this line?

K&E is meant for a Real Niche deck, not something to just be splashed into any Borg deck. Up the requirements to play it, but Avoid the RFG.

As for Homeward Bound: I Still don't see the major issue with it. Maybe add a "Three [Fed] [Voy] " requirement to it to keep the bleed in check (and avoid Crazy stuff like Romulan All Space Noodge Clown-shoe ROFLCOPTER Express). That All Space deck type is one that Needs a card like this to really function, as it is an All or Nothing deck (Only Full Win/Loss), and this can help them keep from being another junk deck that can't win.

If there are bad interactions with such a deck using stuff like Field Studies or OldChuckles, then look at those cards (or in the case of FS, errata the Alsuran mission to need 110/120 points to win).

One suggestion would be to make this like Indomitable: Make the unstop happen at the end of a mission attempt, and only affect those in the mission attempt. I feel this would be a good compromise to try out (and it avoids making Crazy [NA] Data an auto include in this type of deck).

Deep thoughts, with BDubs.
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By KillerB (John Corbett)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
Community Contributor
#334203
I'm no longer the Errata Czar, but I always tried to keep the 'intention of the card'. "upping requirements" is changing a card. RFG is keeping the game clean. That the job of the errata team, not going back in time and putting right what once went wrong.
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#334206
KillerB wrote:I'm no longer the Errata Czar, but I always tried to keep the 'intention of the card'. "upping requirements" is changing a card. RFG is keeping the game clean. That the job of the errata team, not going back in time and putting right what once went wrong.
Except if the card is intended to be recurrable.
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By nickyank
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2023
2E British National Champion 2021
#334207
I'm no longer the Errata Czar, but I always tried to keep the 'intention of the card'. "upping requirements" is changing a card. RFG is keeping the game clean. That the job of the errata team, not going back in time and putting right what once went wrong
Very true, and the intention of the card when designed is clearly to give a boost to assimilation decks, who put the extra resources in. What's happened, after the introduction of Assimilate Resistance, any Borg deck can use that mission with easy requirements to grab an opponent's personnel and go use K&E. So to keep the intent of the card, errata needs to somehow make this card relevant to a deck that puts its resources into assimilating.

Adding Remove From Game has nothing to do with the original design intent, so I'm not sure what you're saying...
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By JamesValEson (Barry Windschitl)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#334208
nickyank wrote: Adding Remove From Game has nothing to do with the original design intent, so I'm not sure what you're saying...
Agreed with your post, but I wanted to just add only going the RFG route justsmacks of taking the "Easy Way Out". That's not "Good For Business ".
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By KillerB (John Corbett)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
Community Contributor
#334209
Latok wrote:
KillerB wrote:I'm no longer the Errata Czar, but I always tried to keep the 'intention of the card'. "upping requirements" is changing a card. RFG is keeping the game clean. That the job of the errata team, not going back in time and putting right what once went wrong.
Except if the card is intended to be recurrable.
Very, very, very, very rarely is a card intended to be played more then three times. And I can't fathom a cheater that should even be considered.

Good troll though.
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#334210
KillerB wrote:
Latok wrote:
KillerB wrote:I'm no longer the Errata Czar, but I always tried to keep the 'intention of the card'. "upping requirements" is changing a card. RFG is keeping the game clean. That the job of the errata team, not going back in time and putting right what once went wrong.
Except if the card is intended to be recurrable.
Very, very, very, very rarely is a card intended to be played more then three times. And I can't fathom a cheater that should even be considered.

Good troll though.
I'm pretty sure the intent of Three of Nine was that Borg can recur anything, or is that not what getting 4 cards back is about.
Last edited by Latok on Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By KillerB (John Corbett)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
Community Contributor
#334211
JamesValEson wrote:
nickyank wrote: Adding Remove From Game has nothing to do with the original design intent, so I'm not sure what you're saying...
Agreed with your post, but I wanted to just add only going the RFG route justsmacks of taking the "Easy Way Out". That's not "Good For Business ".
Errata Team has no interest in changing the card. Theyre concerned with the most powerful cheater in the game being played more then three times.

Nick, side note, I thought you quit? Im confused why you show up every three months and start doing a job you resigned from. Who's the Brand Manager?

You're still on the CC boards, like Matthyas. The CC has turned into a bloated bureaucracy. Even people who turn in their green badge never leave.
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