Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By CaptMDKirk (Matt Kirk)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#365665
Hoss-Drone wrote:Clarifying the difference by making an exception where it didn't have to be isn't keeping anything straightforward - its simply adding to the burden of knowledge to play for reasons that simply aren't good enough.
Okay Kevin, let me ask you this: was the Secret ID ruling keeping the game straightforward? Many players had been playing that interaction wrong since Call to Arms released, and when Keller made that ruling, there was a lot of resistance because it went against many players' sensibilities of how they *thought* the card should work. But it's not a huge deal anymore, it's generally understood that the two personnel have to be able to coexist.

I'm suggesting that this was also the case with Set Up. Players interpreted it in their best interests, and got comfortable with the unintended gameplay boost. There was enough ambiguity that the card could be interpreted that way, and when the RC ruled otherwise, those players were understandably perturbed in the same way people who had been executing Secret ID incorrectly had been: that's not the way they understood the card to work.

And getting back to the case at hand, a requirement of "any attribute" should never be construed as qualifying as an Integrity, Cunning, or Strength mission until the player completes the mission and chooses its mode (I can't imagine a case where this would be relevant, but it's the only time I could imagine it qualifying as such).
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By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#365667
Dukat wrote:Hi guys,

quick question: is Crom's ability triggered when having missions that require "any attribute"?

I would argue that 'any attribute' includes STRENGTH.
If a mission has an "any attribute" requirement, then can you solve the mission without having any Strength present? Yes, you could solve it with Cunning. Therefor it does not REQUIRE Strength, strength is merely one option that you can choose to use.

So I would say that no, an "any attribute" mission does not require Strength, so would not trigger Crom.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#365674
Maelwys wrote:
Dukat wrote:Hi guys,

quick question: is Crom's ability triggered when having missions that require "any attribute"?

I would argue that 'any attribute' includes STRENGTH.
If a mission has an "any attribute" requirement, then can you solve the mission without having any Strength present? Yes, you could solve it with Cunning. Therefor it does not REQUIRE Strength, strength is merely one option that you can choose to use.

So I would say that no, an "any attribute" mission does not require Strength, so would not trigger Crom.
This sounds very logical to me. :thumbsup:
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#365690
CaptMDKirk wrote:
Hoss-Drone wrote:Clarifying the difference by making an exception where it didn't have to be isn't keeping anything straightforward - its simply adding to the burden of knowledge to play for reasons that simply aren't good enough.
Okay Kevin, let me ask you this: was the Secret ID ruling keeping the game straightforward? Many players had been playing that interaction wrong since Call to Arms released, and when Keller made that ruling, there was a lot of resistance because it went against many players' sensibilities of how they *thought* the card should work. But it's not a huge deal anymore, it's generally understood that the two personnel have to be able to coexist.
Apples and Oranges. The Secret ID ruling didn't involve Keller flat out ignoring a previous ruling in order to carve out his ruling. The set up ruling ignores the ruling that a dilemma will make all random selections for stops or kills as a single action. You know the rule that was put in place to bring the power level of Tragic Turn and other cards down and simplify the game by creating only one action to which a player could respond.

This isn't about me wanting Set up to be more powerful. It isn't about me playing set up a certain way and being mad I cant keep doing it that way. I've been around here long enough to have been through quite a few rule changes. I'm insulted that you feel that its just that and I think its insulting to other players that you think their motive so shallow. Its about rules clarity and the goal of having rules harmony instead of carving out exceptions when you don't have to do so.
Maelwys wrote:If a mission has an "any attribute" requirement, then can you solve the mission without having any Strength present? Yes, you could solve it with Cunning. Therefor it does not REQUIRE Strength, strength is merely one option that you can choose to use.

So I would say that no, an "any attribute" mission does not require Strength, so would not trigger Crom.
I don't think that logic is valid here because of missions with alternate requirements. I *could* solve Starbase 718 with Cunning, I don't *have to* solve it with Strength. So strictly speaking it doesn't require Strength. Strength is a *known* option. How the game defines "require" is the issue and as such that's the only logic argument that is valid imho. Do we want to define "require" as: "the mission must say explicitly that it has strength as a possible requirement." OR do we define it as: "the mission must have strength as a known possible requirement.".

This is why I still think the answer is the former since that makes everything more clear and i'll withhold my smartass comment I would like to make at Kirk right now.
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By CaptMDKirk (Matt Kirk)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#365695
Hoss-Drone wrote:How the game defines "require" is the issue and as such that's the only logic argument that is valid imho. Do we want to define "require" as: "the mission must say explicitly that it has strength as a possible requirement." OR do we define it as: "the mission must have strength as a known possible requirement.".

This is why I still think the answer is the former since that makes everything more clear
I am really confused now... have you changed your position that an "any attribute" requirement will not in fact allow Crom to trigger? This is the case that I was making - "Strength" must appear explicitly in bold to qualify as a mission requiring Strength.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#365698
CaptMDKirk wrote:
Hoss-Drone wrote:How the game defines "require" is the issue and as such that's the only logic argument that is valid imho. Do we want to define "require" as: "the mission must say explicitly that it has strength as a possible requirement." OR do we define it as: "the mission must have strength as a known possible requirement.".

This is why I still think the answer is the former since that makes everything more clear
I am really confused now... have you changed your position that an "any attribute" requirement will not in fact allow Crom to trigger? This is the case that I was making - "Strength" must appear explicitly in bold to qualify as a mission requiring Strength.

To quote myself: "I'm going to guess that rules will ultimately say no BUT I would argue for a yes...."

I would put forth an argument to the contrary but that is not the same as what I personally think would be best. There's a difference. Its called Lawyering. :P :wink:
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By CaptMDKirk (Matt Kirk)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#365723
Hoss-Drone wrote:I would put forth an argument to the contrary but that is not the same as what I personally think would be best.
...so you don't want what's best for the game? Or you don't want what's more straightforward?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#365730
CaptMDKirk wrote:
Hoss-Drone wrote:I would put forth an argument to the contrary but that is not the same as what I personally think would be best.
...so you don't want what's best for the game? Or you don't want what's more straightforward?
You misunderstand. Let me just boil this down: a skill lawyers develop is the ability to separate personal opinion from rational discussion.

Basically, the answer to "how can you defend someone you know is guilty?" - simple: there is always a bigger picture to think through.
 
By Peers
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#365781
Maelwys wrote:If a mission has an "any attribute" requirement, then can you solve the mission without having any Strength present? Yes, you could solve it with Cunning. Therefor it does not REQUIRE Strength, strength is merely one option that you can choose to use.

So I would say that no, an "any attribute" mission does not require Strength, so would not trigger Crom.
... horrible argument. You can complete Commandeer Prototype without Leadership, using Int/Off/Treach. In your argument, since you can complete it without Leadership (or Intelligence, for that matter), it does not require Leadership. Which we know, well, it -does-.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#365787
jbales1974 wrote:Why are people making this so complicated?!?!? It's a yes or no question!!!
I agree. Is "Strength" highlighted in bold as a mission requirement? Yes or No. Simple. It is irrelevant if you use the strength requirement or not.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#365789
Yeah, the real confusion is more if you get hit with altered missions.

Say you're a borg attempting Destroy Transwarp Hub. You get hit with... Dead Weight. Can your drones with Exobiology, Navigation, or Physics go on through since they are a mission requirement or do they get stopped since, as Borg, you HAVE to go for the alt requirements which don't have those?

Ah the fun of expanding games.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#365790
T-Ricks wrote:I agree. Is "Strength" highlighted in bold as a mission requirement? Yes or No. Simple. It is irrelevant if you use the strength requirement or not.
:thumbsup:
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#365805
Nate Winchester wrote:Yeah, the real confusion is more if you get hit with altered missions.

Say you're a borg attempting Destroy Transwarp Hub. You get hit with... Dead Weight. Can your drones with Exobiology, Navigation, or Physics go on through since they are a mission requirement or do they get stopped since, as Borg, you HAVE to go for the alt requirements which don't have those?

Ah the fun of expanding games.
Those drones with any of either set of mission requirements get past Dead Weight. Again, whether or not any particular mission requirements is used doesn't matter. An example would be Agonizing Encounter. If an opponent names a skill, it doesn't matter which set of requirements it is listed under. You stop someone for each mission that has that skill listed.
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