[LCJK]

This is completely contrary to the sort of way I play, but there seems to be a number of problems with 2E that are open to exploitation. Nobody plays like this because trek players aren't jerks and I realise that you can't stop your opponent from being a jerk but stuff like this could be easily fixed.

1. I don't have to reveal my entire personnel, only the skill or icon on them that I'm using.
If I wanted, is there any reason I couldn't play my games with a set of carefully cut out bits of paper with holes that only reveal a small portion of a card? I could slide these into the same sleeve as my personnel and my opponent would only be able to see a particular skill or icon and wouldn't know which personnel I was showing them.
The player that doesnt do this, and just does the normal thing of revealing say Bashir and saying 'here's my medical' is at a disadvantage - the other player now knows where Bashir is.

2. I don't have tell my opponent whether or not I have personnel at a specific place.
If I wanted, is there any reason I couldn't carry with me a pile of opaque boxes to store my personnel on the table in? I could place one opaque box on every planet, under every ship, and every other place a personnel might end up. I could then fly a few different ships to the same location, declare to my opponent I was going to beam some personnel around, turn my back on my opponent and move personnel between each box then put each box back on the table, under a ship and say "finished". Come my opponent's turn, if he wants to battle me he has no idea which of my ships has any people on it.
The opponent of the player that doesn't do this can just eyeball how big a pile of cards is and can easily tell whether or not a ship is empty. Not doing this puts you at a disadvantage.

Lets revise the rules that allow these sorts of shenanigans. Thoughts?

[whitestar29]

The TD should not allow either of these examples. There is a difference between not declaring there are cards at a location and hiding or obstructing the cards in some way.

The OP guide says you can use sleeves, but the fronts have to be transparent and not obstructed in any way. If a player wanted to block all or part of the card, they can. Inserting something into the sleeve I would challange, because how am I supposed to know that they did not just insert something with that skill printed on it?

As far as the boxes, this is a BIG no. You still have to have the cards shown, you just are not required to acknowledge how many personnel are at any location. If a player tries this, remember that you are still allowed to know if a ship is staffed or not, and what the attributes of the ship are (in the case of the ones that get bonuses for certain traits aboard). So even if the TD allows this, before you move, ask if a ship is staffed, what it's attributes are, and then ask your opponent to prove it (including the affiliation). When your opponent beams, he/she does not have to tell you who or how many personnel are beamed, but since each beam is an action, he/she is required to declare beaming from "location 1 to location 2" for every beam action he/she does.

not giving out unrequired information is one thing, going out of your way to hide information is something completely different. If your opponent insists on doing things with his/her back to you so you can't see, call the TD over to verify his/her actions. Since you cannot see what he/she is doing, you have no idea if it is a valid action, or if your opponent is cheating in any way.

In my events, I would consider something like this bordering on unsportsmanlike conduct and would ask them to stop.

[jjh]

Lets revise the rules that allow these sorts of shenanigans. Thoughts?

Um, no.

[whampiri]

If a player tries this, remember that you are still allowed to know if a ship is staffed or not, and what the attributes of the ship are (in the case of the ones that get bonuses for certain traits aboard).

Just a quick clarification, you're only allowed to know if a ship is staffed when your opponent moves the ship, not if he's attempting a mission from it, beaming to or from it or after you've killed people on the ship.

[MilesStuntDouble]

The TD should not allow either of these examples. There is a difference between not declaring there are cards at a location and hiding or obstructing the cards in some way.

The TD should allow the first example because it is explicitly allowed by the rules, when you use an icon or characteristic, you ONLY have to show that icon or characteristic to the opponent. That is, you are explicitly allowed to hide parts of the card.

The OP guide says you can use sleeves, but the fronts have to be transparent and not obstructed in any way. If a player wanted to block all or part of the card, they can. Inserting something into the sleeve I would challange, because how am I supposed to know that they did not just insert something with that skill printed on it?

Because you can always ask the opponent to take out the cover and make sure nothing additional is printed on it.

When your opponent beams, he/she does not have to tell you who or how many personnel are beamed, but since each beam is an action, he/she is required to declare beaming from "location 1 to location 2" for every beam action he/she does.

Technically, when you beam from one location to another, you are using the characteristic of each personnel being 'a personnel', and hence you have to let the opponent verify that each personnel beaming down is actually a personnel. Hence, he or she will probably be able to count the number of personnel you beamed down. On the other hand, this can be simply combatted by simply letting the opponent verify certain cards more than once, and hence, disturbing his count.

Also, where in the rules does it say that you have to tell your opponent what the current attributes of your ship is?

not giving out unrequired information is one thing, going out of your way to hide information is something completely different. If your opponent insists on doing things with his/her back to you so you can't see, call the TD over to verify his/her actions. Since you cannot see what he/she is doing, you have no idea if it is a valid action, or if your opponent is cheating in any way.

As I pointed out above, since the opponent is the characteristics of certain cards, he does have to prove to you that the cards he is beaming in fact are of the correct characteristics. Hence, there is no real reason for the opponent to turn his back.

[/quote]
In my events, I would consider something like this bordering on unsportsmanlike conduct and would ask them to stop.[/quote]

The point Mr. Clarke is trying to make is that 2E has rules that players can take advantage of- even though players rarely do. Therefore, when players go out of their way to take advantage of them, it makes them look like a jerk, and moreover, makes the game unfun.

I would agree with Mr. Clarke. that the rule about only showing your opponent only certain characteristics is open for abuse and making the game unfun, and further, it would not be harmful to simply make players show the whole card whenever they use it.

No one likes it when players actually use it, so what is the point in letting players use it?

I have to admit I have resorted to revealing only relevant portions of cards when the opponent is targeting one personnel in particular (and/or in order to have the opponent use up his resources to go after the wrong set of people). The opponent was even shocked I could do that, and it even got a "Only Jerks Do That" response from the TD.

[LCJK]

The point Mr. Clarke is trying to make is that 2E has rules that players can take advantage of- even though players rarely do. Therefore, when players go out of their way to take advantage of them, it makes them look like a jerk, and moreover, makes the game unfun.

I would agree with Mr. Clarke. that the rule about only showing your opponent only certain characteristics is open for abuse and making the game unfun, and further, it would not be harmful to simply make players show the whole card whenever they use it.

No one likes it when players actually use it, so what is the point in letting players use it?

Precisely.

[ZodoJats]

Lets revise the rules that allow these sorts of shenanigans. Thoughts?

Um, no.

You're right, we should keep unnecessary rules that give advantages to players being jerks.

[Foreman]

I have to say that I have never understood the "only show the relevant portion of the card rule" was ever put into the game. It seems unnecessary, and can actaully slow the game down.

[Taurnil]

I think showing portion of card rule is stupid rule and unnecessary. Noone have ever done this to me even on major event.

Location of cards is something different, using boxes is a stupid idea that would slow a game down. But saying someone is on the ship is fine in my opinion insted of these five personnel are on the ship, regardles you should be able to have counted the number of personnel your opponent have in play.

[Mogor]

I think the balance point would be between showing relevant portions of the personnel and have the personnel examained at length each time it is used in anyway shape or form

[KillerB]

The TD should allow the first example because it is explicitly allowed by the rules, when you use an icon or characteristic, you ONLY have to show that icon or characteristic to the opponent. That is, you are explicitly allowed to hide parts of the card.

Wrong. Though this has been an unclear rule for sometime. When you use a personel for anything you have to show the whole card. That's how it is now.

[garetjax]

Wrong. Though this has been an unclear rule for sometime. When you use a personel for anything you have to show the whole card. That's how it is now.

Wrong. Look in the rulebook at the bottom grey box on page 6.
If we want it otherwise, we have to change the rulebook.

[Taurnil]

Wrong. Though this has been an unclear rule for sometime. When you use a personel for anything you have to show the whole card. That's how it is now.

Wrong. Look in the rulebook at the bottom grey box on page 6.
If we want it otherwise, we have to change the rulebook.

And I think we should do that.

[garetjax]

And I think we should do that.

Agreed.

[Andreas Colter]

The TD should allow the first example because it is explicitly allowed by the rules, when you use an icon or characteristic, you ONLY have to show that icon or characteristic to the opponent. That is, you are explicitly allowed to hide parts of the card.

Wrong. Though this has been an unclear rule for sometime. When you use a personel for anything you have to show the whole card. That's how it is now.

I've been lurking on this discussion until now. I seem to recall the "only show the relevant part of the card" rule being overturned to be "if you show any part, you show it all," (as John indicates) but I cannot find where/when that happened. Has anyone seen anything to validate this?