[LORE]

Following Alabama Nate's comment, let's kick start a new thread about actual gameplay. With all the mid-range decks running rampant in the meta (e.g. Jupiter based Starfleet, Enemy of My Enemy Cardassian, etc.) do speed decks still have a chance? What do the masses think?

For reference, I would define a speed deck as something with 10+ personnel whom cost 1 or less, a high percentage of nouns over verbs, and the capacity to be out attempting on turn 2 or 3. From the looks of the tournament results page, these decks only won a handful of high-level events in 2018 and have been mostly middle-of-the-pack in events with high rated players. Are the days of blowing your opponents' doors off over? Let's hear it!

[bosskamiura]

Outside of battle, I am a speed player. My heart says no, but I haven't played in a tournament in over a year so who knows.

TK

[LORE]

Outside of battle, I am a speed player. My heart says no, but I haven't played in a tournament in over a year so who knows.

TK

Cadets were flat out 2nd rate last month in the DOJO event. I tied Tjark's Starfleet build in a game I likely lose had we played an untimed match and Sascha's Cardassians were in complete control in the final. I rallied after time expired to make it close, but needed some dilemma help to get there. Saving that, I would have lost full 100-35.

So, while my heart also says "no" the evidence is proving otherwise.

[jadziadax8]

I would say that weenies and speed decks were so dominant in the old days, that Decipher (and the CC) may have gone a bit overboard on the sticks for that deck archetype. I personally haven't even thought about playing weenies in years. I like to have the flexibility to counter a number of different strategies that is the hallmark of the mid-range solver.

That being said, I often start out intending to build something small and fast, but end up with a draw deck of between 45 and 50 cards.

I may be able to kick this habit with the new Klingon stuff from Shattered Mirror.

[Naetor.Ret]

I would argue the average speed deck is better than the average mid-range deck. How often has one of those speed decks went 0-3/4 in the past 5 years? I'd guess never. Those decks are very consistent and pretty much auto-win if an opponent gets a bad draw.

That consistency comes with a price. There is little gained from "high rolling" a great opening hand for example, whereas less consistent mid-range deck that high rolls can gain anywhere from 2-4 full turns based on how well they draw. Variation also plays into the deck design as there is only so many 0-2 cost "good" personnel -- you almost can't screw it up. Meanwhile, you can play one of the stronger mid-range design like Big Romulan and totally ruin it by poorly designed personnel selection, ratios, etc..

Related to the consistency/little variation, designing a dilemma pile to combat speed is much easier. Outclassed, In Development, Timescape, etc. pretty much work against every speed deck. Meanwhile, if I wanted to pick out dilemmas to counter mid-range, decisions are more nuanced. Gomtuu might be good against Romulans but much less so against Voyager, Relativity, etc.. Personally, I usually pick out dilemmas to combat speed for defense in case I draw poorly, but rely on my deck design and play to outpace other mid-range decks.

All that being said, speed decks not being regular tournament winning decks is probably ideal. If the #1 decks were also the most consistent and least vulnerable to RNG draw, games would be pretty boring. A speed deck can win any game (I think) so I think they are in a good place, even if they are no longer the metric which all other decks must conform to.

I have different opinions on some decks that function like speed decks, but have the mid-game power of slower decks -- usually the common factor being able to spend 14+ counters on multiple early game turns.

[bosskamiura]

... wall of text ...

Good analysis.

TK

[edgeofhearing]

Speed isn't dead, but it looks different than it used to. DS9 Rainbow is probably the most successful modern speed deck, but it's a bit heavier on verbs than classic speed solvers, and the average personnel cost is a little higher (averaging slightly under 2 rather than a bit over 1). Having the extra reload from Common Purpose and Common Cause helps overwhelm the traditional weenie hate. If I were to play a cadet deck today, I'd probably try to find a way to work New Life (and enough TNG icon personnel to play it) in there, in order to get some degree of the card advantage that the Common cards give you.

Another deck in this vein that's still got legs (but doesn't have the same publicity) is Harrington's TOS Weenie deck. Between the TOS Hero Power HQ text, the extra kick from Rigel X, and TOS's natural ability to shift to midrange by activating the +cost text on its personnel, this deck can reload faster and apply more pressure than traditional speed designs.

The other way speed decks are adapting is to find ways to avoid being targeted by traditional weenie hate. El Jaeger Bombo is more of a combo deck than a classic speed solver, but in many ways it plays similarly (Jaeger's useful deck notes often encourages early megateaming and pressuring the opponent by attempting by turn three). Those turn three attempts are usually rich with high cost personnel, so they aren't hit as hard by In Development and the like.

[Faithful Reader]

Speed isn't dead, but it looks different than it used to.

Really the only way to hammer this is to put a limit on the number of cards (or even counters) you can play in a turn. Speeding yourself up, or rather finding a way around the seven counters a turn, will always have an appeal to players.

[Se7enofMine]

I would say that weenies and speed decks were so dominant in the old days, that Decipher (and the CC) may have gone a bit overboard on the sticks for that deck archetype. I personally haven't even thought about playing weenies in years. I like to have the flexibility to counter a number of different strategies that is the hallmark of the mid-range solver.

That being said, I often start out intending to build something small and fast, but end up with a draw deck of between 45 and 50 cards.

I may be able to kick this habit with the new Klingon stuff from Shattered Mirror.

If there is a deck type called "weenies," I REALLY gotta start playing 2E lol

[Naetor.Ret]

The intimidation of attempting a mission on turn 2-3 and your opponent having to make the decision to pass or not for the next few turns can't be overstated. You can win a lot of games simply by your opponent attempting before they are ready and getting hit by dilemmas that push them back another 2-3 turns.

[LORE]

If there is a deck type called "weenies," I REALLY gotta start playing 2E lol

Yes and yes.

[LORE]

All that being said, speed decks not being regular tournament winning decks is probably ideal.

Valid. I think we are saying effectively the same thing. If SPEED isn't a top contender to win an event, the question then is are these decks Tier 1? Why or why not? Signs point to "no" but let's talk about it.

The intimidation of attempting a mission on turn 2-3 and your opponent having to make the decision to pass or not for the next few turns can't be overstated. You can win a lot of games simply by your opponent attempting before they are ready and getting hit by dilemmas that push them back another 2-3 turns.

Never underestimate the TILT factor. Matt Frid won Worlds and hundreds of matches afterwards by playing simple little SPEED decks that always applied tons of pressure in the early game.

[Naetor.Ret]

All that being said, speed decks not being regular tournament winning decks is probably ideal.

Valid. I think we are saying effectively the same thing. If SPEED isn't a top contender to win an event, the question then is are these decks Tier 1? Why or why not? Signs point to "no" but let's talk about it.

What is the biggest limiting factor when playing speed? It's not getting personnel out to attempt missions. Is it not enough defense vs. an opponent? Weak dilemma busting? Something else?

[LORE]

What is the biggest limiting factor when playing speed? It's not getting personnel out to attempt missions. Is it not enough defense vs. an opponent? Weak dilemma busting? Something else?

Dilemmas, in my opinion. They just get completely hammered by all kinds of CC era stuff, some old and some new. Bread & Circuses specifically doesn't even let them meet the requirements.

[T-Ricks]

All that being said, speed decks not being regular tournament winning decks is probably ideal.

Valid. I think we are saying effectively the same thing. If SPEED isn't a top contender to win an event, the question then is are these decks Tier 1? Why or why not? Signs point to "no" but let's talk about it.

What is the biggest limiting factor when playing speed? It's not getting personnel out to attempt missions. Is it not enough defense vs. an opponent? Weak dilemma busting? Something else?

For me, to make a speed deck, I use weenies. Their attributes are usually pretty low so it takes more of them to meet mission requirements. That seems to be my biggest hurdle getting them to win. Opponents only need to stop a couple of peeps to stall out the mission attempt.