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 The Enemy... errata discussion 
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Post The Enemy... errata discussion
The Enemy of My Enemy wrote:

[Int] When your [Car] personnel is attempting a mission, discard the top three cards of your deck to make that personnel gain all skills, attributes, and keywords on a personnel in your discard pile until the end of the mission attempt.


The Enemy of My Enemy was recently added to the public watchlist.

It is a strong interrupt that functions simultaneously as both a skill and attribute gainer (and keyword, I suppose). At face value it looks a lot like Covenant, a strong interrupt in its own right, with some minor differences that create considerable impact. Below is a breakdown of its current design and its implications, and some options that may be considered if or when it receives errata.

Current design:
1. Little cultural to play enforcement. Absent from this card is any requirement of multiple Cardassian personnel. This makes the gametext much cleaner, but opens the card up to many affiliations. The card can naturally be played from Cardassia, Terok Nor, DS9, and Mirror DS9. While it is OK to have strong cards, the strength should generally be proportional to how strongly the card is culturally enforced. Seeing as it is played in some DS9 decks that run at most 2 such personnel, that would suggest on its own that the card is perhaps too strong as designed.

2. Above the power curve. There are other Cardassian interrupts that gain both attributes and skills, particularly Comfort Women and Means of Control. While there are differences and these other cards still see play, it's not difficult to imagine that in most situations TEOME will be strictly better than these alternatives. As competitive designs usually must limit the number of situational interrupts in a deck, these alternatives are likely being pushed out of the meta.

3. One big non-Cardassian personnel. The biggest bang for you buck comes from gaining the skills and attributes on the beefiest personnel in the game. While this is a fun aspect of the card and reflects the "team up with my enemy" design of the card, it directly affects the power level in considerable ways. Gaining 10+ of an attribute is unparalleled with the exception of gaining 20+ at the cost of 2 TEOME. This gets into some dilemma avoidance strategies because...

4. Dilemmas are not required. TEOME can be played at any point during a mission attempt, making it possible to drastically micro-attempt missions. It's quite possible to solve missions with even one personnel. Even with Transport Crash Survivor in the game, dilemma avoidance strategies should be harshly critiqued as dilemma interplay represents the most common form of player interaction in the game. Prevention like Reprogrammed might not work.

5. ...and repeat. Some very strong effects are limited by their removal from game on effect. TEOME has no such thing, either on the interrupt itself or the personnel in the discard pile. As is, a player could play this interrupt numerous times a game using existing retrieval options.

Possible changes (any, all, or none):
-Perhaps the most obvious change would be to simply let it mirror Covenant. Limiting it to Cardassian personnel while facing a dilemma would alleviate these issues, and we already know Covenant is very much playable.
-Removing the interrupt and personnel from the game on effect would maintain the design of the card while making it less consistent and repeatable. This nerf alone may be enough to balance the power of it.
-Limiting the personnel target-able may be another way to balance the card; eg cost has to match the cost of the Cardassian personnel. The best case scenario would be Seska pulling a Data, which is still about as strong but is more limited culturally and reduces the power level.
-You could roll the dice by making it only target one of the 3 cards discarded to pay its cost. So you could still high roll or manipulate the roll, but the consistency/power goes down.
-You could also make it cost more, perhaps doing something like discarding from the top equal the cost of the personnel. So if you really want One, the cost may hurt (though it could help if discarding is your goal). TEOME is most dangerous in multiple copies, so risking ones still in your deck may normalize the effect.

Anyway, I've talked enough about this card. What do you think?


Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:02 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Naetor.Ret wrote:

Anyway, I've talked enough about this card. What do you think?


Relax. Something is coming.

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Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:26 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Possibly some parts of some of these solutions might be getting discussed already. I do appreciate a dialogue tho.

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Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:33 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
KillerB wrote:
Naetor.Ret wrote:

Anyway, I've talked enough about this card. What do you think?


Relax. Something is coming.

To much thought and information to be a Corbett approved discussion?


Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:38 am
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
prylardurden wrote:
Possibly some parts of some of these solutions might be getting discussed already. I do appreciate a dialogue tho.


+1

It also made me think about recruiting Nate for the Errata Team, but that’s not my call.


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Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:49 am
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Latok wrote:
KillerB wrote:
Naetor.Ret wrote:

Anyway, I've talked enough about this card. What do you think?


Relax. Something is coming.

To much thought and information to be a Corbett approved discussion?

More likely similar to the already happening discussion on the Errata forum and elsewhere.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:15 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
jadziadax8 wrote:
It also made me think about recruiting Nate for the Errata Team, but that’s not my call.


Naetor.Ret for The Errata Team!

He'll get my vote!

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:22 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
jadziadax8 wrote:
prylardurden wrote:
Possibly some parts of some of these solutions might be getting discussed already. I do appreciate a dialogue tho.

+1

It also made me think about recruiting Nate for the Errata Team, but that’s not my call.

Yeah, I assumed it was being discussed and figured it would be nice to throw my 2 cents in as a player, figuring this would catch your eye. And while I appreciate the sentiment, I generally prefer to analyze cards as a player without any allegiance to a particular card or team. If the errata team needs help, I would. But I think Josh and his team do a pretty good job -- he's pretty receptive and has a good pulse on the game.


Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:34 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Latok wrote:
KillerB wrote:
Naetor.Ret wrote:

Anyway, I've talked enough about this card. What do you think?


Relax. Something is coming.

To much thought and information to be a Corbett approved discussion?


I'm not sure what that means.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:27 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Naetor.Ret wrote:
And while I appreciate the sentiment, I generally prefer to analyze cards as a player without any allegiance to a particular card or team.


What if you did the analysis and then thought about the overall goodness in the game? You were a bit verbose, but otherwise through and well thought out. You presented a good argument used comparisons to other cards and then presented some reasonable alternatives while still remaining true to the integrity of the original card.

I would call that a pretty good application.

Naetor.Ret wrote:
But I think Josh and his team do a pretty good job -- he's pretty receptive and has a good pulse on the game.


I think they do a great job. They have some great discussions about cards, no less through than yours and look at all aspects of it. They understand that often, good work takes time and measuring twice can help making sure they only need to cut once. If there's a problematic combo, they find the problem card.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:54 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Faithful Reader wrote:
Naetor.Ret wrote:
And while I appreciate the sentiment, I generally prefer to analyze cards as a player without any allegiance to a particular card or team.


What if you did the analysis and then thought about the overall goodness in the game? You were a bit verbose, but otherwise through and well thought out. You presented a good argument used comparisons to other cards and then presented some reasonable alternatives while still remaining true to the integrity of the original card.

I would call that a pretty good application.

Naetor.Ret wrote:
But I think Josh and his team do a pretty good job -- he's pretty receptive and has a good pulse on the game.


I think they do a great job. They have some great discussions about cards, no less through than yours and look at all aspects of it. They understand that often, good work takes time and measuring twice can help making sure they only need to cut once. If there's a problematic combo, they find the problem card.


Thought for future errata summarize their discussion, leave out the names and add that to the notice?


Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:08 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Naetor.Ret for the Errata team!

TK

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Mogor wrote:

Thought for future errata summarize their discussion, leave out the names and add that to the notice?


If the mods agree to the same then I'm all for it.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:41 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
KillerB wrote:
Mogor wrote:

Thought for future errata summarize their discussion, leave out the names and add that to the notice?


If the mods agree to the same then I'm all for it.


Stay on Target, Corbett. This thread has nothing to do with the Mods. Take it over to the Mod dialog thread or any of the half dozen mod related threads in The Buzz. Keep the gameplay forums about gameplay please.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:44 pm
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Post Re: The Enemy... errata discussion
Armus wrote:

Stay on Target, Corbett. This thread has nothing to do with the Mods. Take it over to the Mod dialog thread or any of the half dozen mod related threads in The Buzz. Keep the gameplay forums about gameplay please.


That's not quite true, what's good for one department could be good for the other. Relax, don't make up another bad precedent to ban me. While I was banned you talked about wanting a discussion yet you've been MIA since my return. I'll await your opinions on the "appropriate" threads.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:48 pm
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