[The Prefect]

[I don't know what gave you the impression that I don't have an open mind.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, please don't bring this dreadful shit to my game!
The day that happens, I'm out the door.

[monty42]

Ok. So now you're taking statements out of context to be smug? Nice

[The Prefect]

Ok. So now you're taking statements out of context to be smug? Nice

What was the context?

You're okay with new affiliations, but not - under any circumstances - those three. No matter how good the idea. No matter how solid the execution. Not those three. Never. No way. You quit.

Did I misread the post?

[monty42]

Ok. So now you're taking statements out of context to be smug? Nice

What was the context?

You're okay with new affiliations, but not - under any circumstances - those three. No matter how good the idea. No matter how solid the execution. Not those three. Never. No way. You quit.

Did I misread the post?

Correct.
You were rambling on how people weren't open to new ideas.
I am open to new ideas. But not those three affilations.

They were a bad idea because there's nothing there!

You can have the best idea, the best execution, it'll all fall flat when you try to do it with all of these random nobodies that nobody can even remember!

You might as well just go ahead and do Andorians.

[The Prefect]

Ok. So now you're taking statements out of context to be smug? Nice

What was the context?

You're okay with new affiliations, but not - under any circumstances - those three. No matter how good the idea. No matter how solid the execution. Not those three. Never. No way. You quit.

Did I misread the post?

Correct.
You were rambling on how people weren't open to new ideas.
I am open to new ideas. But not those three affilations.

They were a bad idea because there's nothing there!

You can have the best idea, the best execution, it'll all fall flat when you try to do it with all of these random nobodies that nobody can even remember!

You might as well just go ahead and do Andorians.

This is a longer post - so forgive the "rambling." Sometimes memes just won't do.

Let me address the two substantive points you make: lack of potential game content and lack of story-support.

Concerning content: Any new affiliation that gets created is going to have a fair amount of non-uniques - and even some uniques that are embelished - for lack of a better word.

But, that's also true of ....

Take one of my favorites: Cardassians.

There are, if I exclude duplicates, 41 unique Cardassians. Of those 41, 7 are created pretty much on a few seconds of screen time and either don't actually get a name in the series or get any lines, or neither. Of the remaining 34, 9 more represent characters we see on screen for a few minutes at most and might have a few lines. That leaves really 25 Cardassians that had significant screen time or story impact. So, over the years, design has had to be creative, and even, on occasion, take some big liberties to fill game-needs. But, for the most part I think it's been done well.

Concerning story: We know an awful lot about the Cardassians, that's true. But that's because they were featured in three different series. Bajorans and Ferengi too (four for the Ferengi if you count the brief Voyager appearance). Borg got air time in two series and a movie. The Dominion was a key factor throughout five seasons of Deep Space Nine. So, for each of these there's a lot there, and I think it would be hard to argue any of them shouldn't have been made.

So, let's return to the question of a new affiliation - even the forbidden three.

Concerning content: It's true there's far less content for any new affiliation option, even Vulcans. But, as has been shown before - good design and good work from Creative and Art can overcome that limitation to a point. Is that enough? It's subjective and a matter of opinion, and one about which we obviously disagree.

Concerning story: The Hirogen appeared in seasons 4-7. The Kazon were Voyager's primary antagonists for Voyager's first two seasons. The Vidiians are a recurring adversary for Voyager for the first two seasons. The Xindi were the primary adversary of Starfleet for the entire third season of Enterprise. The Vulcans appeared throughout four seasons of Enterprise. Each has a fair amount of backstory and unique flavor - but none rise to the level of any affiliation we currently have in 2E. Does that mean there's not enough creative content there for any of them? Again, I think that's primarily a matter of opinion, and one that we obviously disagree on.

What irked me so much about your post was the degree to which you seem unwilling even to concede that there are other valid opinions on the matter. Let me be clear: I'm not necessarily advocating for a new affiliation. What I can't stand, as a matter of principle, is being told that a creative avenue that seems possibly fruitful is something forbidden; that is the absence of open-mindedness. It stifles creativity. And, for a whole enterprise dedicated to keeping alive a game that's been dead for twelve years, it's out-of-place.

[monty42]

What was the context?

You're okay with new affiliations, but not - under any circumstances - those three. No matter how good the idea. No matter how solid the execution. Not those three. Never. No way. You quit.

Did I misread the post?

Correct.
You were rambling on how people weren't open to new ideas.
I am open to new ideas. But not those three affilations.

They were a bad idea because there's nothing there!

You can have the best idea, the best execution, it'll all fall flat when you try to do it with all of these random nobodies that nobody can even remember!

You might as well just go ahead and do Andorians.

This is a longer post - so forgive the "rambling." Sometimes memes just won't do.

Let me address the two substantive points you make: lack of potential game content and lack of story-support.

Concerning content: Any new affiliation that gets created is going to have a fair amount of non-uniques - and even some uniques that are embelished - for lack of a better word.

But, that's also true of ....

Take one of my favorites: Cardassians.

There are, if I exclude duplicates, 41 unique Cardassians. Of those 41, 7 are created pretty much on a few seconds of screen time and either don't actually get a name in the series or get any lines, or neither. Of the remaining 34, 9 more represent characters we see on screen for a few minutes at most and might have a few lines. That leaves really 25 Cardassians that had significant screen time or story impact. So, over the years, design has had to be creative, and even, on occasion, take some big liberties to fill game-needs. But, for the most part I think it's been done well.

Concerning story: We know an awful lot about the Cardassians, that's true. But that's because they were featured in three different series. Bajorans and Ferengi too (four for the Ferengi if you count the brief Voyager appearance). Borg got air time in two series and a movie. The Dominion was a key factor throughout five seasons of Deep Space Nine. So, for each of these there's a lot there, and I think it would be hard to argue any of them shouldn't have been made.

So, let's return to the question of a new affiliation - even the forbidden three.

Concerning content: It's true there's far less content for any new affiliation option, even Vulcans. But, as has been shown before - good design and good work from Creative and Art can overcome that limitation to a point. Is that enough? It's subjective and a matter of opinion, and one about which we obviously disagree.

Concerning story: The Hirogen appeared in seasons 4-7. The Kazon were Voyager's primary antagonists for Voyager's first two seasons. The Vidiians are a recurring adversary for Voyager for the first two seasons. The Xindi were the primary adversary of Starfleet for the entire third season of Enterprise. The Vulcans appeared throughout four seasons of Enterprise. Each has a fair amount of backstory and unique flavor - but none rise to the level of any affiliation we currently have in 2E. Does that mean there's not enough creative content there for any of them? Again, I think that's primarily a matter of opinion, and one that we obviously disagree on.

What irked me so much about your post was the degree to which you seem unwilling even to concede that there are other valid opinions on the matter. Let me be clear: I'm not necessarily advocating for a new affiliation. What I can't stand, as a matter of principle, is being told that a creative avenue that seems possibly fruitful is something forbidden; that is the absence of open-mindedness. It stifles creativity. And, for a whole enterprise dedicated to keeping alive a game that's been dead for twelve years, it's out-of-place.

Ok let me try and address this back to front.
First of all I'm not in a position to "forbid" you or any designer to do anything.
I have a personal opinion on the matter (which I stand by) but I'm not asking anybody to believe what I belive.
It might be out of place but it's my belief.

There's a distinct difference between the affilations you mentioned

and and .
Sure they all have loads of random stooges but they don't consist entirely of such!
all have significant star power to pull the affilation along.
Who doesn't remember Kira, Odo, Dukat, Garak, Weyoun, The Founder Leader, Quark, The Grand Nagus. Heck even the Borg have the Queen, Locutus and Seven of Nine.

I can't for the life of me remember the name of a single Kazon, Viidian or Hirogen.

But it's those names that kept our interest in the shows and it's the same names that draw us to specific affilations.
I mean just look at yourself for example. You call yourself The Prefect and your favorite affilations are and .
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that's not because of random Cardie #2.

I believe if we do go the route of a new affilation, we should anchor it with something or somebody that people can relate to because that's what makes it appealing.

[Marquetry]

I would love to see Hirogen and Xindi, and wouldn't mind Kazon/Vidiian. We need to catch up to 1e- Kazon Seska, Danara Pell, Decaren, Karr... for Voyager fans there's plenty of star power!

[Faithful Reader]

Mike, thank you for a very solid post. We might get a new affiliation one day, but it won't be specifically to get a new affiliation in the game, it will be because awesome new gameplay. Look at how affiliations have evolved over their introduction to the game. The first ones were fairly ordinary before moving onto things like not having an HQ or having upgrades.

all have significant star power to pull the affilation along.
Who doesn't remember Kira, Odo, Dukat, Garak, Weyoun, The Founder Leader, Quark, The Grand Nagus. Heck even the Borg have the Queen, Locutus and Seven of Nine.

This is a huge piece since a lot of the Star Power for these affiliations will be kind of forced in. Chakotay, The Doctor and Torres for Vidiian, Janeway for Hirogen and Chakotay again for Kazon. It helps to spread out the much needed skills, helps deckbuilding and is cool.

I can't for the life of me remember the name of a single Kazon, Viidian or Hirogen.

What's the difference if we make up a name or Berman? A lot of guys in TOS have names, but no lines. We can remember the Hirogen doctor or that other Kazon who bugged Kar. It's that one random guy that you don't even know what episode they came from that's an issue. Although if they have a good enough skill set, or ability, it doesn't matter.

And a little secret: You'll want to pay attention to the non-unique names in the next set.

[monty42]

I can't for the life of me remember the name of a single Kazon, Viidian or Hirogen.

What's the difference if we make up a name or Berman? A lot of guys in TOS have names, but no lines. We can remember the Hirogen doctor or that other Kazon who bugged Kar. It's that one random guy that you don't even know what episode they came from that's an issue. Although if they have a good enough skill set, or ability, it doesn't matter.

Excuse me but did you pay attention to any of the about dozen posts I made before? It fucking matters!
Of course it doesen't matter whether we name them or they. The whole point is nobody cares about red shirts! And nobody cares about an affilation that consists of nothing but redshirts!

[The Prefect]

First of all I'm not in a position to "forbid" you or any designer to do anything.

I submit that no good designer wants to be held responsible for driving away dedicated, traveling, talented players. When a player of your notoriety says, "do this and I quit, full stop" designers take notice.

And, never mind players. What if a tester said that to a designer: "design x and I refuse to test it - I'll quit." That would be even worse.

That's what I mean when I say this attitude holds designers back.

I mean just look at yourself for example. You call yourself The Prefect and your favorite affiliations are and . I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that's not because of random Cardie #2.

You're saying the other affiliations have no star power equivalent to Dukat. I think Voyager or Enterprise fans would disagree. And, a trek fan who doesn't care that much about DS9 probably wouldn't know a prefect from a self-sealing stem bolt.

I believe if we do go the route of a new affiliation, we should anchor it with something or somebody that people can relate to because that's what makes it appealing.

Again, for you they may not hold appeal, at first. But, for fans of those franchises within the property, they probably will. And, if design did it's job right, and players starting winning with Vulcans, or Xindi, or Kazon, then some other people would start playing them just because.

Mike, thank you for a very solid post. We might get a new affiliation one day, but it won't be specifically to get a new affiliation in the game, it will be because awesome new gameplay.

Thanks for the post Ross, but I want to push back on the "awesome" threshold. First, what does "awesome" mean? Must it completely revolutionize the game? Must it be a totally new mechanic? If so, I'd argue that's a prohibitively high bar to set. And, if this what we mean by "awesome" then I' say that is a threshold rarely achieved - even for existing affiliations, and even in Decipher days.

As a player, I'd be more than satisfied with a new affiliation that was playable, fun, competitive, flavorful, recognizable to me, and offered something new to the game, or at least a new wrinkle on an existing mechanic. It doesn't have to be revolutionary.

Now, again, I am not saying we do it just to do it. Let's assume that any designer who pitches a new affiliation for 2E intends it to be good and thinks it has the potential to be. But, if a designer figures out how to do it well, and there's a general feeling that it will be well-received, then demanding it be "awesome" may stand in the way something good and exciting.

[monty42]

I mean just look at yourself for example. You call yourself The Prefect and your favorite affiliations are and . I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that's not because of random Cardie #2.

You're saying the other affiliations have no star power equivalent to Dukat. I think Voyager or Enterprise fans would disagree. And, a trek fan who doesn't care that much about DS9 probably wouldn't know a prefect from a self-sealing stem bolt.

I believe if we do go the route of a new affiliation, we should anchor it with something or somebody that people can relate to because that's what makes it appealing.

Again, for you they may not hold appeal, at first. But, for fans of those franchises within the property, they probably will. And, if design did it's job right, and players starting winning with Vulcans, or Xindi, or Kazon, then some other people would start playing them just because.

I can see where you're trying to go here but are you gonna tell me that even the most dedicated Voyager fan can honestly argue that any Kazon, Viidian or Hirogen could ever compete with a Dukat, Weyoun, Locutus, Quark or Sela?

[nobthehobbit]

Culluh. Maybe.

[monty42]

Culluh. Maybe.

Who?

[The Prefect]

Culluh. Maybe.

Who?

There is no villain in any franchise that qualitatively compares to Dukat. He is Star Trek's most complex and well-developed villain. Maybe Khan. Maybe Elim Garak. As far as heroes go: who can compare to Spock? No one. Maybe Kirk and Picard. Those characters are in a league all their own. They're iconic.

If that's the threshold we're setting, some of our existing affiliations don't get made.

[monty42]

If that's the threshold we're setting, some of our existing affiliations don't get made.

It's not. What about Weyoun, Sela, Locutus, The Borg Queen, The Founder Leader, and not to forget Q.
Tell me Culluh compares to any of these...