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 Nothing to Lose 
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Delta Quadrant

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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Seems like this set never got tested, or rolled out before it was ready. Half the cards probably won't see play in 6 months. This will be everywhere forever. Maybe it all makes more sense if you play Hall of Fame exclusively.

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Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:25 am
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Naetor wrote:
Seems like this set never got tested, or rolled out before it was ready. Half the cards probably won't see play in 6 months. This will be everywhere forever. Maybe it all makes more sense if you play Hall of Fame exclusively.


I don't even know what you're trying to imply. You packed a lot of bad takes in 4 sentences. I appreciate the brevity.

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Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:31 am
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Delta Quadrant

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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
KillerB wrote:
Naetor wrote:
Seems like this set never got tested, or rolled out before it was ready. Half the cards probably won't see play in 6 months. This will be everywhere forever. Maybe it all makes more sense if you play Hall of Fame exclusively.


I don't even know what you're trying to imply. You packed a lot of bad takes in 4 sentences. I appreciate the brevity.

Is there a policy among the design staff to not engage with the public?

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Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:04 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
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Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:27 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Naetor wrote:

Is there a policy among the design staff to not engage with the public?



I'm no longer a policy maker.

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Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:37 pm
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Delta Quadrant


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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Naetor wrote:
KillerB wrote:
Naetor wrote:
Seems like this set never got tested, or rolled out before it was ready. Half the cards probably won't see play in 6 months. This will be everywhere forever. Maybe it all makes more sense if you play Hall of Fame exclusively.


I don't even know what you're trying to imply. You packed a lot of bad takes in 4 sentences. I appreciate the brevity.

Is there a policy among the design staff to not engage with the public?


There is no policy not to engage. However, any engagement about a card from a specific set usually occurs in the Q&A thread about that set.

At no point during playtesting did any of our playtesters give feedback that the card was unbalanced or undercoated (which is my personnel opinion to this day). The idea behind the dilemma was to make different requirements than seen before - that alone as John pointed out helps shake up deck design.

There are plenty of options to get past Nothing to Lose, including using Holograms (which you cannot "save" because they are discarded - not killed), using a low integrity Acquisition personnel (a counter to having all high attribute personnel), all-stop dilemma prevention, or using a skill adding card or ability. If you don't play with these cards, that is part of the risk of encountering this dilemma. If you do play with these cards all the time, then Nothing to Lose won't do much to you - and because it does cost 4 and doesn't return to the dilemma pile, its cost might over time not be worth your opponent to use.

We knew it would likely hit neu-headquarters and Borg harder because they can't normally use Non-Aligned holograms... but there is one card in the game that actually allows you to play four different Holograms to any headquarters. Neu-headquarters should have cards that hurt them some... yes, there is a penalty for not being able to use Non-Aligned personnel -- but that penalty is directly offset by the headquarter's bonus ability. What it also does is eliminate the power of the cards that penaltize mutli-HQ decks... this dilemma responds to that loss a bit.

Let me put it another way, one player in my group continues to use a Dominion/Infestation deck. Its gets no fun to play nearly every tournament. What do you do to counter it? Use cards to destroy the deck like Krim. If Nothing to Lose becomes no fun to play against - stock cards to make the dilemma harmless. They exist. If you don't want to include such cards, that is your prerogative... just like its my prerogative not to include Krim in a DS9 or Bajoran deck.

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Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
There's was a third requirement on this dilemma. I recall urging Sean and Charlie to take it off and make this a strong dilemma.

With that extra requirement I believe the dilemma would've been binder fodder (just my opinion), without it we have a card worth talking about!

It fucks with [Bor] and [Rom] ? Even better!

When your comfortable all the time you never grow. I see a bunch of players who NEVER EVER want to grow.

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:05 pm
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Delta Quadrant

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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Jono wrote:
The idea behind the dilemma was to make different requirements than seen before - that alone as John pointed out helps shake up deck design.

Hmm... it looks like the goal was just to make a strong dilemma, and the point of the requirements was just to make it stronger.

Usually a card like this, with very specific requirements, you'd think would be trying to push people in a direction. On my show, Lucas claimed it to be like Outclassed. Outclassed has a pretty clear intention to move people to play bigger ships since there wasn't much incentive to do so.

It sounds like that wasn't the intention here -- no "stick" or "carrot" by design. Which makes it just a dilemma you have deal with, without any other reason to do so. That is partially where I -- and it sounds like some others -- seem to be displeased with it.

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:20 pm
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Delta Quadrant


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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
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We knew it would likely hit neu-headquarters and Borg harder because they can't normally use Non-Aligned holograms... but there is one card in the game that actually allows you to play four different Holograms to any headquarters. Neu-headquarters should have cards that hurt them some... yes, there is a penalty for not being able to use Non-Aligned personnel -- but that penalty is directly offset by the headquarter's bonus ability.

Why should Neu-HQs have cards that hurt them? Yeah the penalty of no [NA] is offset by the ability, that's self-contained balance where is the need for anything else? Romulan is the best affiliation with either HQ and Dominion and Bajoran are quite shit even with the new HQs which are significant benefits to them.

Quote:
What it also does is eliminate the power of the cards that penaltize mutli-HQ decks... this dilemma responds to that loss a bit.

I'm confused by what you mean here, is it neu-HQs hurt multi-HQ decks or they hurt anti-multi-HQ cards or something else?

Quote:
but there is one card in the game that actually allows you to play four different Holograms to any headquarters.

What card is that?


Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
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but there is one card in the game that actually allows you to play four different Holograms to any headquarters.
Latok wrote:
What card is that?


Interstellar Treaty

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:40 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Latok wrote:
Quote:
but there is one card in the game that actually allows you to play four different Holograms to any headquarters.

What card is that?


Given that there's four holograms with [SD] Diplomacy and cost less than 4, I'm guessing Interstellar Treaty

Edit: Looks like Danny beat me to it. That's what I get for citing my sources. :P

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Latok wrote:
Why should Neu-HQs have cards that hurt them? Yeah the penalty of no [NA] is offset by the ability, that's self-contained balance where is the need for anything else? Romulan is the best affiliation with either HQ and Dominion and Bajoran are quite shit even with the new HQs which are significant benefits to them.


The lack of access to non-aligned is only a balancing factor if you actually have a reason to want to use non-aligned cards. Choosing a neuHQ should be exactly that - a choice. You want the cool HQ ability? Fine, just realize part of the cost there is a weakness to dilemmas you could otherwise bypass with non-aligned personnel.

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:31 pm
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Delta Quadrant

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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Latok wrote:
Why should Neu-HQs have cards that hurt them?

I think you're reading too much into it. It doesn't seem like there is any intention of this card, and anything hurt by it is just a happenstance of some HQs being better suited to defend against it than others. Kris' comment earlier highlights this pretty well:
LORE wrote:
..what was the design goal / point of this card? To push people into playing Holograms? Having to kill one to pass it seems a bit counter-productive if so.

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:21 pm
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Delta Quadrant


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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
Naetor wrote:
Latok wrote:
Why should Neu-HQs have cards that hurt them?

I think you're reading too much into it. It doesn't seem like there is any intention of this card, and anything hurt by it is just a happenstance of some HQs being better suited to defend against it than others. Kris' comment earlier highlights this pretty well:
LORE wrote:
..what was the design goal / point of this card? To push people into playing Holograms? Having to kill one to pass it seems a bit counter-productive if so.


There are a lot of mini-carrots designed in the card...
...to push people to incorporating different personnel (holograms or personnel with low integrity who has Acquisition)
...to push people to include cards to add skills or prevent total stops
...to push you to not include as much death protection (since it doesn't work with this dilemma)

The anti-Neu-HQ was just a byproduct...

Here are a list of personnel with INT<4 that can gain any skill:
Elim Garak, Crafty Underling
Krax, Arrogant Heir
Nanclus, Co-Conspirator
Silik, Chameleon
James T. Kirk, Brutal Barbarian
Borg Queen, Bringer of Order
Dukat, Dominion Puppet
Jaro Essa, Leader of the Circle

Here are a list of cards that let you gain any skill on a personnel:
Confessions in the Pale Moonlight
D'Vela
Maquis Raid
Navaar, Experienced Gift
The Void Alliance
Rule of Acquisition #144

There are 26 different personnel who can pass this dilemma with native Acquisition and INT<4. There are also 36 different Hologram personnel in the game.

Both numbers are higher that the number of different personnel with Telepathy currently in the game (16).

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:52 pm
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Delta Quadrant

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Post Re: Nothing to Lose
So ~1/3 of the goal of this card was for more skill gaining and some prevent and overcome effects?

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Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:40 pm
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