[durgforaday]

Sorry if this has been covered before. I did not see it. If I am attempting a mission with Lore and I face Polywater can I choose to stop Lore as my stop and then him not be stopped because he cannot be stopped!?

[edgeofhearing]

Sorry if this has been covered before. I did not see it. If I am attempting a mission with Lore and I face Polywater can I choose to stop Lore as my stop and then him not be stopped because he cannot be stopped!?

No, you cannot choose a personnel to be stopped who cannot be stopped.

[Fritzinger]

Is that right? You can randomly select him to be stopped and the stop fizzles. And if you choose someone who cannot be stopped for a dilemma like dark page, the "if you cannot" text triggers. So it seems like 2e anticipates you choosing people who cannot be stopped to be stopped.

I thought?

[edgeofhearing]

Is that right? You can randomly select him to be stopped and the stop fizzles. And if you choose someone who cannot be stopped for a dilemma like dark page, the "if you cannot" text triggers. So it seems like 2e anticipates you choosing people who cannot be stopped to be stopped.

I thought?

You cannot choose him for Dark Page. You're thinking of choosing someone, then preventing it with something like Relentless, which you can do.

Rulebook:

When a card has a player choose a card to perform an action, if that card cannot perform that action, that card cannot be chosen. For example: if a player’s only Diplomacy or Leadership personnel is Lore, The One, his or her opponent cannot choose him to be stopped by Tense Negotiations

[durgforaday]

I am fine with the Poywater ruling, although I see no rule or precedent to support that I, who have the choice of whom to stop, could not choose Lore as the one (sorry, no pun intended) to be stopped then his game text triggers to not allow him to be stopped. I trust your knowledge of the game far beyond my own but would love a bit of rationale! Also, we have always played that if one of the "choose a ______ to be stopped, If you cannot randomly kill someone" dilemmas could not have the stop prevented without the kill triggering. Your Dark Page example is news to me. Please clarify!! Thanks!

[Gorgo Primus]

I think you've misunderstood. If the stop doesn't happen or gets prevented, the kill happens. Even on Dark Page. He's just saying that the only way to prevent a stop when forced to choose someone, is to use something like that interrupt that directly prevents the stop. You can't just choose to stop someone who says they can't be a stopped. They're not a valid target cause you can't actually stop them.

General rule of thumb: If you have to choose/pick someone to stop/kill you have to pick someone who can actually be stopped/killed. If it is a random selection to see who would be stopped or killed, and they end up chosen, then the event/interrupt/dilemma doesn't get to try again with another random selection in hopes of finding a valid target - so their text prevents anything from happening. If they somehow also have a line that says they can't be randomly selected in addition to not being stoppable/killable, then you can't even include them in that and they'll just never interact with that dilemma at all.

[Naetor]

I once had this conversation with members of the Rules team:

I have a couple questions on how you would rule on Jonathan Archer, Novice Mediator in an away team with Lore, Brother and Son and Soval, Vulcan Ambassador (gametext active). Here are some scenarios:

1. Randomly select a personnel to be stopped/killed... such as Pinned Down. Can I choose Lore?
2. Randomly select a personnel... blah/blah/if/unless... That personnel is stopped/killed such as The Weak Will Perish. Can I choose Lore?
3. Randomly select a personnel... repeat this until... Those personnel are stopped/killed such as Intimidation. Can I choose Lore and Soval?
4. Randomly select all but one of those to be stopped such as An Issue of Trust. Can I choose Lore, then Soval, leaving Archer as the unstopped?

I will ask <redacted> for further clarification, but at this moment based on the rulings and documents I have available I would say that the determining factor is the separation of the selection and the action.

Since you're really just replacing the random selection text with your choice, the first case would not work since you are choosing someone to be stopped/killed and can not choose someone that can't do that.

In the second and third cases, I would say you could choose them because you are not being asked to stop/kill them in the same action, only make a selection and check and then something happens in a separate action.

The fourth case asks you to make a selection of personnel to be stopped (since it's now your choice), so that's a case where you couldn't choose Lore/Soval as part of the rest to be stopped which I would say makes either/both the ones that must go through. This last one is the main reason I want clarification, just because the direct interaction of the two cards is a bit sloppy. The others I am more confident in for the reasons I outlined above.

I then asked more about the 4th scenario...

<Redacted>'s reply from today. The interpretation I had on the Issue of Trust (4th question) was that you must choose Lore and/or Soval to continue (select all others to be stopped) as they cannot be selected to be stopped, and all other personnel affected would then be stopped per the dilemma's effect. They are reviewing the other interactions. I'll send updates as I get them. Thanks!

Final word back from Rules tonight was not 100% consensus, but that if you know that the outcome will result in performing an acton that you can't normally perform that you shouldn't be able to do so. It doesn't prevent you from using other methods to prevent stops/kills, but redirecting to an otherwise ineligible target should not work.

Reading back, I still don't understand all the situations where I can or cannot choose, but I decided to scrap the deck and never followed-up further.

[edgeofhearing]

Also, we have always played that if one of the "choose a ______ to be stopped, If you cannot randomly kill someone" dilemmas could not have the stop prevented without the kill triggering.

I think that, in my haste, I may have been unclear. Let's break it down:

A) Lore vs. Polywater: You cannot choose someone to be stopped who cannot be stopped. The same is true for Dark Page, you just can't pick Lore for it. Rules justification from the rulebook -

When a card
has a player choose a card to perform an action, if that card cannot perform
that action, that card cannot be chosen. For example: if a player’s only
Diplomacy or Leadership personnel is Lore, The One, his or her opponent
cannot choose him to be stopped by Tense Negotiations.

B) Stop prevention vs. Dark Page: You can prevent the stop from Dark Page with stop prevention, but then (you're correct) the kill happens. Rules justification from the rulebook -

Some dilemmas describe one effect, followed by an alternate effect “if you
cannot” perform the first. In such cases, if the first effect is not performed
completely, you must perform the second. For example, Command Decisions
reads: Choose a personnel who has Leadership or Officer to be stopped. If
you cannot, randomly select a personnel to be killed. Relam reads: When
this personnel is about to be stopped by a dilemma, you may discard
an event from hand to prevent that. If you choose Relam to be stopped
by Command Decisions, then use his text to prevent that, you have not
completely performed the first effect, and must then randomly select a
personnel to be killed.

[durgforaday]

Thank you for the clarification!! The Dark Page info is what we thought and I missed that on your first explanation. I get the Polywater interaction as well. As always, still learning!!

[Fritzinger]

Thanks Lucas, I was definitely confused.