Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#495399
If the only personnel I have who costs 5 or more is Lore, The One and I hit Indecent Proposal, does the dilemma wiff? My thinking is that Lore doesn't avoid random selection so he would be the the random choice. However, since he can't be stopped by a dilemma, nothing would happen. Right, wrong?
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#495400
I agree with your logic that nobody would be stopped. I would also argue that the dilemma goes back to the dilemma pile because nobody was stopped.

Edit: does NOT go back because nobody was stopped. Missed a key word there.
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By Mogor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#495405
Not sure I agree with that, since he cannot be stopped by a dilemma, he may not be eligible to be randomly selected to be stopped by it and if you cannot stop a cost 5 personnel, I think that the opponent choice aspect kicks in and then you throw the dilemma back
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#495406
Mogor wrote:Not sure I agree with that, since he cannot be stopped by a dilemma, he may not be eligible to be randomly selected to be stopped by it and if you cannot stop a cost 5 personnel, I think that the opponent choice aspect kicks in and then you throw the dilemma back
He can be randomly selected by dilemmas, just not stopped by them. Conversely, as he can't be stopped by dilemmas, his owner can't choose him to be stopped by one.
Page 11 of the Rulebook wrote:When a card is selected to perform an action and that card cannot perform that action, that action is ignored. For example: Koval, Chairman of the Tal Shiar is randomly selected to be stopped by Pinned Down. Since he cannot be stopped by dilemmas, the action of stopping him is ignored. When a card has a player choose a card to perform an action, if that card cannot perform that action, that card cannot be chosen. For example: if a player’s only Diplomacy or Leadership personnel is Lore, The One, his or her opponent cannot choose him to be stopped by Tense Negotiations.
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By Mogor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#495408
So if he cannot be stopped, he can be randomly selected to be stopped but since you cannot actually do that. The next part of the dilemma ie the opponent stop selection should kick in with the bounce back on the dilemma itself
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#495433
Ok I'm trying to follow this conversation and it's confused me.

This isn't that hard. Indecent Proposal is worded the same way as Command Decisions, with the if you cannot clause, making the stopping a requirement instead of an effect, the only difference being a random selection vice a choice.

So if we assume that Lore is the only 5+ cost person, let's also assume for conversational purposes that he's also the only leadership or officer and that this particular attempt is at a space mission.

If Command Decisions is revealed, you can't choose Lore to be stopped, so the second part kicks in and somebody randomly dies. That's well established and shouldn't be controversial.

With Indecent Proposal, it's the same concept. You randomly select Lore (since he's the only eligible target) but by his own text he can't be stopped. Therefore, you can't randomly select a personnel with cost 5 or more to be stopped, as required by the dilemma, so the second part kicks in and your opponent chooses a personnel to be stopped, at which point the dilemma goes under the mission (since anyone stopped in this scenario wouldn't cost 5 or more).

That's how I read it. If there's a flaw in my logic I'm open to hearing it.
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#495434
Armus wrote:Ok I'm trying to follow this conversation and it's confused me.

This isn't that hard. Indecent Proposal is worded the same way as Command Decisions, with the if you cannot clause, making the stopping a requirement instead of an effect, the only difference being a random selection vice a choice.

So if we assume that Lore is the only 5+ cost person, let's also assume for conversational purposes that he's also the only leadership or officer and that this particular attempt is at a space mission.

If Command Decisions is revealed, you can't choose Lore to be stopped, so the second part kicks in and somebody randomly dies. That's well established and shouldn't be controversial.

With Indecent Proposal, it's the same concept. You randomly select Lore (since he's the only eligible target) but by his own text he can't be stopped. Therefore, you can't randomly select a personnel with cost 5 or more to be stopped, as required by the dilemma, so the second part kicks in and your opponent chooses a personnel to be stopped, at which point the dilemma goes under the mission (since anyone stopped in this scenario wouldn't cost 5 or more).

That's how I read it. If there's a flaw in my logic I'm open to hearing it.
What would happen if Lore wasn't the only 5 cost personnel but he was the one randomly selected?
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#495442
Armus wrote:Ok I'm trying to follow this conversation and it's confused me.

This isn't that hard. Indecent Proposal is worded the same way as Command Decisions, with the if you cannot clause, making the stopping a requirement instead of an effect, the only difference being a random selection vice a choice.

So if we assume that Lore is the only 5+ cost person, let's also assume for conversational purposes that he's also the only leadership or officer and that this particular attempt is at a space mission.

If Command Decisions is revealed, you can't choose Lore to be stopped, so the second part kicks in and somebody randomly dies. That's well established and shouldn't be controversial.

With Indecent Proposal, it's the same concept. You randomly select Lore (since he's the only eligible target) but by his own text he can't be stopped. Therefore, you can't randomly select a personnel with cost 5 or more to be stopped, as required by the dilemma, so the second part kicks in and your opponent chooses a personnel to be stopped, at which point the dilemma goes under the mission (since anyone stopped in this scenario wouldn't cost 5 or more).

That's how I read it. If there's a flaw in my logic I'm open to hearing it.
I agree with this interpretation.
Latok wrote:What would happen if Lore wasn't the only 5 cost personnel but he was the one randomly selected?
Ooo, good question. I would rule that if Lore is selected from all the eligible choices, then the 2nd part still kicks in because you still cannot stop the 5-coster.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#495446
Armus wrote:This isn't that hard.
That's what she said.
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Ambassador
By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#495447
jadziadax8 wrote:
Latok wrote:What would happen if Lore wasn't the only 5 cost personnel but he was the one randomly selected?
Ooo, good question. I would rule that if Lore is selected from all the eligible choices, then the 2nd part still kicks in because you still cannot stop the 5-coster.
Ouch. So my opponent picks an eligible 5-cost personnel to be stopped AND the dilemma goes back. Ouch again.
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Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#495449
Randomly select a personnel who costs 5 or more to be stopped.
Lore can be selected, he ist cost 6.
He noting prevent him from being in the state "to be stopped".
With a choice the rulebook
When a card is selected to perform an action and that card cannot perform that action, that action is ignored. For example: Koval, Chairman of the Tal Shiar is randomly selected to be stopped by Pinned Down. Since he cannot be stopped by dilemmas, the action of stopping him is ignored. When a card has a player choose a card to perform an action, if that card cannot perform that action, that card cannot be chosen. For example: if a player’s only Diplomacy or Leadership personnel is Lore, The One, his or her opponent cannot choose him to be stopped by Tense Negotiations.
his gametext would prevent him from that choice the commanding player of Lore has to do, that's a random selection from another player here.
So he get randomly selected, and "to be stopped".
If you cannot, your opponent chooses a personnel to be stopped.
There was someone selected. -> else nothing.
If a personnel who costs 5 or more was stopped by this dilemma, return this dilemma to its owner's dilemma pile.
Noone was stopped, again dilemma overcome.

Where was my flaw in the logic?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#495452
eberlems wrote: Where was my flaw in the logic?
Short answer: in the parsing of the logical statement.

You're separating the selection and the stop when they're both part of the same action

If we call the Selection A and the stop B, then both pinned down and Indecent Proposal read "Randomly A to B" which evaluates to A AND B. Lore says NOT B (~B)

So with pinned down selecting Lore (or Koval in the rulebook example) it's
A AND B
~B
Therefore (A and B) is false and nothing happens.

However, with Indecent Proposal it's a little more involved.

It reads
A and B
If (A and B)=false, C, where C is the second part of the dilemma.

So when encountering the dilemma there's 3 scenarios:
1) A and B are both true
2) A is false and B is true
3) A is true and B is false
(There's also the trivial case of A and B both being false but it resolves the same as 2 and 3 below and I don't have a use case handy - it would definitely take some doing)

If 1, then a high cost person gets stopped and the dilemma bounces.

If 2, there was no personnel eligible for the random selection, so proceed to C, a choice stop occurs and the dilemma goes under

If 3, there was no personnel eligible to be stopped - which is the case with Lore as the only option - so proceed to C and resolve as in 2 above.

That's how I arrived at my previous conclusion.

Now, to Greg's question: this is a little trickier, but using the same logic as the Command Decisions precedent, i would argue that since i can't CHOOSE to make (A and B) false by selecting Lore for Command Decisions, I must choose my alternative because I must make (A and B) true if possible.

Therefore, it can be inferred that if Lore is selected and there's another option that would make (A and B) true, then the selection of Lore must give way to that option. Technically that means I reselect until I get a valid target, but in practical terms that means Lore is excluded from the selection.

However, my answer is just that: a logical inference. It can also be inferred that since the rule applies specifically to choices and not random selections, Maggie's ruling is correct under the "do as much as you can" principle and I'm open to that being the ultimately correct interpretation, though I think it's ambiguous enough that Rules Mistress Amber should probably weigh in with a clarification.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#495470
jadziadax8 wrote:Do we need to invent a summoning dance for her?
I'll try!

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