[bhosp]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to try and have this discussion here and now.

I am going to politely ask the moderators to pretend this thread doesn’t exist.

Everyone, what complaints do you have about 2E the game?

And what complaints do you have about 2E the culture/community?

(It is my theory that those questions are inextricably linked, no matter how much people want to pretend otherwise.)

[JeBuS]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to try and have this discussion here and now.

I am going to politely ask the moderators to pretend this thread doesn’t exist.

Everyone, what complaints do you have about 2E the game?

And what complaints do you have about 2E the culture/community?

(It is my theory that those questions are inextricably linked, no matter how much people want to pretend otherwise.)

I can't say I have discovered "problems" with the game, yet. I have some initial reservations, though. I'm coming from a lifelong devotion to 1e, and 2e really is "just a game" to me, in the sense that it doesn't "feel" like I'm playing Trek. The feeling of infinite possibilities that I get from 1e hasn't been there in 2e. I recently discovered the persona rules for 2e, for instance, and they're a bit of a letdown.

As for the culture and community of 2e? The forum seems toxic. Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

[monty42]

As for the culture and community of 2e? The forum seems toxic. Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

One question that comes to mind is "Why is there so much drama behind the scenes" then?

[bhosp]

I can't say I have discovered "problems" with the game, yet. I have some initial reservations, though. I'm coming from a lifelong devotion to 1e, and 2e really is "just a game" to me, in the sense that it doesn't "feel" like I'm playing Trek. The feeling of infinite possibilities that I get from 1e hasn't been there in 2e. I recently discovered the persona rules for 2e, for instance, and they're a bit of a letdown.

As for the culture and community of 2e? The forum seems toxic. Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

I think that an unintended consequence of the CoC and Moderation regime has been to force the suppression of various grudges and grievances in a way that they never get resolved, but keep bubbling over into discussions about the game itself.

[Nerdopolis Prime]

Good topic, Ben!

Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

The same for potential new players. Only they discard the game as a whole.

[monty42]

I can't say I have discovered "problems" with the game, yet. I have some initial reservations, though. I'm coming from a lifelong devotion to 1e, and 2e really is "just a game" to me, in the sense that it doesn't "feel" like I'm playing Trek. The feeling of infinite possibilities that I get from 1e hasn't been there in 2e. I recently discovered the persona rules for 2e, for instance, and they're a bit of a letdown.

As for the culture and community of 2e? The forum seems toxic. Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

I think that an unintended consequence of the CoC and Moderation regime has been to force the suppression of various grudges and grievances in a way that they never get resolved, but keep bubbling over into discussions about the game itself.

I think the CoC and it's moderators are a welcome scapegoat for people to direct their anger at but they're not the cause of it.

[jadziadax8]

I can't say I have discovered "problems" with the game, yet. I have some initial reservations, though. I'm coming from a lifelong devotion to 1e, and 2e really is "just a game" to me, in the sense that it doesn't "feel" like I'm playing Trek. The feeling of infinite possibilities that I get from 1e hasn't been there in 2e. I recently discovered the persona rules for 2e, for instance, and they're a bit of a letdown.

As for the culture and community of 2e? The forum seems toxic. Every thread devolves into fights over behind the scenes clashes. I can't just come here to read discussion about playing the game. It makes me not want to visit the 2e gameplay forum.

I think that an unintended consequence of the CoC and Moderation regime has been to force the suppression of various grudges and grievances in a way that they never get resolved, but keep bubbling over into discussions about the game itself.

It's possible to talk about grievances without calling people names. Learn this.

[bhosp]

I think that an unintended consequence of the CoC and Moderation regime has been to force the suppression of various grudges and grievances in a way that they never get resolved, but keep bubbling over into discussions about the game itself.

I think the CoC and it's moderators are a welcome scapegoat for people to direct their anger at but they're not the cause of it.[/quote]

Yes, as I’ve said, during my recent exile, I have come to believe this. I think they have made our problems at least slightly worse on net, but have done so by accident, while acting in good faith.

[bhosp]

It's possible to talk about grievances without calling people names. Learn this.

Agreed, but the message sent when a moderator comes in with a Red Flag, the implicit message is “this person has lost the argument, because the community’s neutral arbiters have judged it so.”

The moderators would all surely protest that this isn’t the message they intend to send, and indeed whenever asked, they loudly and explicitly deny that they are sending any such message. But it is profoundly naive to think that it doesn’t create such a perception.

[bhosp]

Furthermore, the implicit argument whenever a thread is locked (or split) is “this discussion (or part of it) is unworthy of our community.” As I’ve said, there is a *reason* why disagreements about whether a card is good or bad tend to become disagreements about whether a *person* is good or bad around here.

[monty42]

It's possible to talk about grievances without calling people names. Learn this.

Agreed, but the message sent when a moderator comes in with a Red Flag, the implicit message is “this person has lost the argument, because the community’s neutral arbiters have judged it so.”

The moderators would all surely protest that this isn’t the message they intend to send, and indeed whenever asked, they loudly and explicitly deny that they are sending any such message. But it is profoundly naive to think that it doesn’t create such a perception.

This may be preceived differently by different people. I'd rather we return to the topic you chose:
Why are they all mad?
Cuz moderation is clearly an effect (maybe one that makes things worse) but not the cause.

[Armus]

It's possible to talk about grievances without calling people names. Learn this.

Agreed, but the message sent when a moderator comes in with a Red Flag, the implicit message is “this person has lost the argument, because the community’s neutral arbiters have judged it so.”

The moderators would all surely protest that this isn’t the message they intend to send, and indeed whenever asked, they loudly and explicitly deny that they are sending any such message. But it is profoundly naive to think that it doesn’t create such a perception.

I would submit that if you're reduced to levying personal attacks, you HAVE lost the argument, whether or not you catch a Moderator Red Flag

I think the smart people call that an ad hominem fallacy.

[Nerdopolis Prime]

Argumentum ad hominem is a wonderful thing. It shows when exactly a person breaks and ignores the topic and starts attacking his "opponent". I see it all the time on this forum.

[bhosp]

It's possible to talk about grievances without calling people names. Learn this.

Agreed, but the message sent when a moderator comes in with a Red Flag, the implicit message is “this person has lost the argument, because the community’s neutral arbiters have judged it so.”

The moderators would all surely protest that this isn’t the message they intend to send, and indeed whenever asked, they loudly and explicitly deny that they are sending any such message. But it is profoundly naive to think that it doesn’t create such a perception.

I would submit that if you're reduced to levying personal attacks, you HAVE lost the argument, whether or not you catch a Moderator Red Flag

I think the smart people call that an ad hominem fallacy.

You have the Ad Hominem fallacy almost exactly backward. Personal attacks don’t falsify an argument any more than they validate it.

[KillerB]

One question that comes to mind is "Why is there so much drama behind the scenes" then?

Passion. Passion is good. So I would ask, "Where is the failure in leadership at the top that leads to passion spilling out into the public forums?"

Let me state my opinion again that the presupposition by the majority of this community that conflict is always bad is short sighted.

It's all a matter of perspective. If you looked at your blood at the microscopic level you'd see all sorts of conflict. Zoom out and you see it's all part of healthy, functioning organism.