[Clerasil ToB]

Time:

Your calculation is as wrong as my intentional calculation was when I first attended C/W.

In such a huge event played offline with 6 rounds you have to calculate:

1 hour playtime - total of 6 hours

In such a big event with so many games to be played each round it is an unwritten law that at least one match every round will need some overtime. And because there is no time limit left in overtime and because it normally is a very close game, the participants take their time. So to be on a safe side you have to calculate 15 minutes more each round for overtime - for a total of 1,5 hours

The TD cannot start pairing the next round before every game is finished. Normally the TD has to double check if all the results are written down correctly. Then the pairings and announcing the new round. If you are very quick you'll have this done in 10-15 minutes. Let's go with 15 minutes 5 times between the rounds - for a total of 1,25 hours

Time everyone needs to sit down, taking their decks out of the boxes, shaking hands until everyone is ready to start - around 5 minutes before you can start each round - for a total of 30 minutes

You need at least one break during such a long tournament for lunch or whatever - let's go with 1 hour for that.

And unavoidable the "normal" delays you have to count in if you plan with caution - players at the toilet, out there for a cigarette, misplacing their decks, TD's notebook crashes,... - I'll plan this point very low for my example with 30 minutes.

I think I didn't forget anything. But within my calculation you are at 10 Hours 45 minutes for a 6 round continental Event (so in fact my calculation in my intial post was even to low…).

Let's go online with my calculation:

75 minutes each round - total of 7,5 hours

The issue with overtime would stay the same and might even take a little longer as online games take more time by their nature - so let's go with 20 minutes on this one - for a total of 1 hour 20 minutes

The time the judge needs to do the pairings would stay the same - so 1,25 hours here

The next point is different online but the needed time would stay the same. You need to find your opponent, start your voice chat with him/her, open a table on Lackey, import your deck, check that both have the same plugin, ready to start. It will take 5 minutes before EVERYONE would be ready - 30 minutes

Break stays the same - 1 hour is needed.

As I would presume would the delays be. Again, they might be different than in the real game, but the needed time would stay the same - let's go with 30 minutes here

We have a total of 12 hours 5 minutes here.

There might be some other issues I'm unaware of if you are judging an online event which also take some time, so I think my initial time frame for an online event is quite accurate.

Meeting other people:

You're absolutely right that online you can meet more people from greater distances much easier than in the offline game. If you only look at the games played at a Continental Event and are only interested in those, there is definately no difference on- or offline.

For a lot of players the "things around the game" at C/W are as important as the main event itself. As for Worlds 2019 a lot of players came to me and told me, that the most memorable things where our Welcome Dinner including the Cocktail Bar on Wednesday evening/night, to sit around at Jazzland's bar and have a conversation with 4 other people about everything, to laugh about the jokes the guys from "the other game" did, and last but not least to witness Niall's Mary dancing around during Aberdeen Anarchy.

Those are all things impossible to provide in an online event.

[Naetor]

I've never played online before, though I have given it some thought. I recently joined The Dojo to leave that possibility open, in fact.

To players who have played both online and in-person, what do you think are the costs/benefits of each?

Online is just a slightly different game. The ability to know some information on-screen (how many dilemmas my opponent has before he 'flips' his pile) and sometimes there's seemingly obvious situations of people scrolling up through the logs - contributes. I find myself forgetting things far more often since you're given all that information and it's easy to get caught napping.

I've had many situations where someone has brought a 300 card dilemma pile. Probably wouldn't expect that in live games. Personally I'm more inclined to play large decks online vs. live because it doesn't mean cutting out so many cards.

[Johannes Mette]

....
I've had many situations where someone has brought a 300 card dilemma pile. Probably wouldn't expect that in live games. Personally I'm more inclined to play large decks online vs. live because it doesn't mean cutting out so many cards.

this was funny!

[jjh]

It's 2020.

Online play on ALL levels should be a priority for this organization, the community, all of us.

As for the term "Continentals" - I would like to see "Online" treated as its own continent.

Oh, and for timing, a lot is solved with "hands down." No overtime.

[monty42]

In all honesty people, why do we have to prefer or prioritise one over the other? Why does everything here have to be a competition?
Have an online continental ffs and see how it turns out! If it's crap, you don't have to do it again. If it's a success, have more! Let the online guys play online and the travellers travel! There's absolutely no point in competing with one another on this!!!
The more the game gets played, the better for everybody!

[LORE]

As many of you know, high-level online play began shortly after I took over as DooP. This was roughly 10 years after the formation of the CC. I put forth the suggestion of an online Continentals at that time, and it was rejected. Eventually, we compromised as a group and began online Masters in 2018. Both the 2018 and 2019 online Masters were wildly successful and the online player base is essentially the only play group that is guaranteed to get a Masters annually. (Or at least, it will have one under my watch.)

But the ability to cheat is a huge concern. This organization has had issues with cheating at high-level in person tournaments in the past, and the risk of such activities increases exponentially when playing online. I am far from an IT wizard, but even I was able to load a 2nd window in a First Edition simulated game and see every dilemma my opponent seeded. The fact that this level of blatant cheating can be done while a mythical opponent is oblivious to it is completely unacceptable. Period.

Another gigantic factor is cost. The OP and others have pitched online Continentals in addition to online Masters. Ok, great. So, who pays for it? The CC as an organization only has so much money to provide prizes to high-level tournaments, and each year under my leadership we have added more events to the calendar than were run the year previously. This has increased the CC's Organized Play budget, and I myself have subsidized the CC each year I have been on the job in order to help offset those gains. (This year's donation being made today, actually.)

For the moment, let's pretend that all the volunteers involved in assembling these high-level tournament kits have no problem whatsoever with us adding to their workload. So, in theory, we can ignore the cost to assemble and ship a hypothetical 4th Continental kit. Let's instead talk logistics. In person, all the prizes are distributed the day off and there is no extra cost. Everyone gets something and goes home. But online? Those costs go way up. Shipping all over the World is an added layer of expense, and one I have paid out of pocket for online Masters in both 2018 & 2019. Last year alone I packaged up 24 distinct prize packages for the competitors, and I can tell you those packages plus shipping costs was not insignificant. To say nothing of the time spent to do so. So, again I will ask... who is paying for it? Both in terms of volunteer time / CC resources and actual dollars?

[monty42]

So, again I will ask... who is paying for it?

Well, most of the continentals I've entered so far had entry fees. How 'bout that for a start?

[monty42]

You could set up an online continentals processing fee on the promenade and players would have to buy it to participate.

[LORE]

Well, most of the continentals I've entered so far had entry fees. How 'bout that for a start?

My comment may have come across as snarky, but it is based on historical fact: we have had trouble getting the online community to pay for anything (notably Regionals) in the past.

I am not trying to toot my own horn at all, but I have paid for everything related to Online Masters myself as a show of good faith / to give the online player community something it lacked for nearly 10 years. They were neglected for a decade, and I made it my mission to change that. I am certainly not opposed to granting the online community another Masters nor even, potentially, a higher level event in the future. But something has got to give. The "get something for nothing" mentality simply is not sustainable.

[monty42]

Again like I said before we're most likely not gonna find out anything new by debating this to the death.
Give it a shot. If it fails, it fails but at least we'll be one experience richer.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't have a stake in this since I don't play online but I do think it can be a worthwhile try.

[LORE]

Again like I said before we're most likely not gonna find out anything new by debating this to the death.
Give it a shot. If it fails, it fails but at least we'll be one experience richer.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't have a stake in this since I don't play online but I do think it can be a worthwhile try.

I agree. There is no sense in debating this again.

Give me a software platform (e.g. Table Top Simulator) that eliminates the ability to cheat, a dedicated T.D. to run the event(s), and the financial support to make it all happen and I will champion the cause.

[monty42]

There is no sense in debating this again.

You're probably right.

[Hoss-Drone]

Serious moment – the issues preventing online being serious are:

1. Lackey is a garbage program that frequently doesn’t work, locks up, drops games, etc
2. Lackey doesn’t always want to work on newer windows programs forcing players to do hours of computer tech troubleshooting just to participate
3. Lackey is easily exploitable for someone who wants to cheat. It was designed to be freeware to just let players play casual – it was never meant to be a serious program for serious play
4. When you finally do get a game going, The lackey interface requires a constant *IN GAME* stream of “this takes longer to do than I could do it in real life” making the games longer
5. Because of 1-4 the time commitment to run a game and a tournament is enormous and just cant be done as a serious 1 day venture
6. Finding a block of time to play will naturally exclude at least one hemisphere from playing given how time zones work
7. So you are essentially forced to do a tournament as a multi day event which then creates a new time commitment problem…and players just frequently dropping
8. It seems around here everybody just wants to get something for nothing so nobody wants to actually pay to host it, pay an entry fee and everytime I've brought up tabletop simulator the response has been "but, but, but that costs money! "

That pretty much cover it?

So unless all 8 points are solved, online doesn't get a tourney above masters. Now, as for solving it my suggestions are:

1. Move to tabletop simulator. It's a vastly superior program that doesn't have the exploitable issues that lackey does and its interface is more intuitive so games go faster.
2. Entry fee to sign up required.
3. The event would be a two day, two plus bracketed. Pick one of x start times for day 1 divided equally by the number of players and you play in that qualifier heat, top x from each move onto the day 2 portion that is also played as a 1 day event.

[KillerB]

Somebody create a better/easier interface than Lackey.

Plus all those words Kevin just used.

[monty42]

So what I'm hearing is that everyone still holds their nerd titles so percious as to where everything is fine as long as the label is Masters but once it's i.e. Continentals it's an entirely different game and all those things that are fine for a Masters will all of a sudden turn the world upside down?