[jjh]

Does Tabletop Simulator take programming? Software management? Asset management? Should there be a CC position (within the OP department? IT department) that manages the platform?

My hope is that Kevin's Lackey replacement is as simple as it sounds, but is it?

[eberlems]

Lackey isn't perfect.

There were some talks about that Tabletop Simulator on discord but it's very quiet atm.
Tabletop Simulator costs money.
No trekcc import/export of decks yet.

[Gorgo Primus]

First off, I own tabletop sim. It is NOT made for ccgs. It has an intensive physics engine to aid in board games that sucks up a lot of computer resources for nothing. It also can NOT let you build a deck without jumping through a ton of hoops. It just isn’t a good option.

As for Lackey.... it isn’t perfect but I’ve played on it for many years and have not run into a single issue you’re talking about, other than in my fourth ever game there was a server crash that we had to use an auto save to fix. Respectfully, a lot of those issues sound like they are on your end. Most things take less time on Lackey (not more) once you’ve figured out all the shortcuts, I don’t recall ever having these kinds of technical issues (and I have the latest version of Widows and parts from the past year), and as I’ve exhaustively explained meaningful cheating is impossible. If you’d ever like for me to give you a tour of Lackey for you to give it another shot or perhaps even show me first hand these seemingly overwhelming flaws in it, I’d be more than happy to arrange to do that with you.

Kris:

This constant talk of cheating as a major sticking point makes me feel like you didn’t read the opening post or my following post. Where is the significant means of cheating? What in all the examples and explanations I gave are wrong? 2e isn’t 1e and there are no seeds to peek at. You literally can’t see any of the other person’s cards in their tabs if you do what you suggest.

I know it is a long read but as you are the of the main people I had in mind when I wrote about OP and their arguments against high level events online, I’d really like for you to take a moment and read them before repeating the same old arguments. I don’t mean to come off as glib or rude here, but when I spend over an hour writing out step by step how meaningful cheating is impossible here and you follow up with a short post that just casually insists cheating is your main concern it feels like you’ve just skipped to the last page and posted based off the title. But maybe I’m being unfair and you did read it all and just thought it was so wrong it wasn’t worth the explanation of how, but if that’s the case I think we’re all still owed you showing your work if cheating is your main concern and the main reason for the No.

As for cost, if offline pays so can we. Fact is many of us Online players have bought premium multiple times before, so it isn’t like we don’t care about how the CC financially functions. If the fees to enter seem reasonable for what we get out of them I don’t foresee riots or a mass drop in players over them.

Now with regard to time issues, maybe I am being naive, maybe I’m not. We’ve had valuable insight from offline TDs but we’ve yet to see any posts from someone who has regularly TDed online before outside Kris (who graciously ran Masters last year), though he hasn’t said anything with regards to timing yet. We’ve also not heard from any of the older TDs who used to run same day Online tournaments and would thus have even better ideas as to what it might take.

Kris I know it was far from same day and you never observed a game during tournament like the TDs might at high level play, but if you don’t mind me asking, what kinds of issues did you run into TDing Masters that could shed light on this aspect of the issue? How many games even went to overtime?

All I know with perfect certainty is that we’ve never even attempted a ‘live’ Online tournament on this scale before. Why not beta test it then? Set up a casual live tournament with X rounds over one to three days, get willing TDs to act as they would at the real thing and see how long it is. If everyone acted in good faith (so no intentionally causing issues) we’d know for certain what the timings would roughly be as well as some of the possible issues. Maybe a beta test like that is a lot of ask if everyone involved but if would make or break the question of if we can do this then I’d hope the online community could pull together for it at some point.

This was all typed on my phone, so apologies if an autocorrect snuck in or something ends up a different tone than I intended due to not being able to read the whole thing over multiple times before posting. I am very passionate about this issue, but I don’t hold any grudges or hatreds towards those who disagree. If something comes off as aggressive or mean spirited, please know that that isn’t my intention and I’ve tried to word things such as to convey that to the best of my abilities.

[JeBuS]

Does Tabletop Simulator take programming? Software management? Asset management?

Yes. Yes. And yes. I looked into it a bit a few months back. It is possible to do some scripting in TTS. It's not a language I'm very familiar with, only having used it a bit about 10 years ago. It is possible to package up the card images as assets.

Should there be a CC position (within the OP department? IT department) that manages the platform?

My hope is that Kevin's Lackey replacement is as simple as it sounds, but is it?

We'd need someone to take ownership of that project. They'd have to manage the development of the plugin, plus the pipeline for continual updates to the assets.

[Gorgo Primus]

Don’t get me wrong, if someone can make a dedicated program that is better than Lackey they have my full and excited support!
I just know TTS is an awful fit, and I don’t want to have to wait three years for someone to program a replacement before we get high level tournaments online.

[Naetor]

I prefer Lackey, but understand it is a barrier for others. Still, expecting a better alternative to emerge is wishful thinking.

I think any discussion on a higher level event needs to be grounded in 'this the tool and these are its limitations', just like every other low to mid level event. If you're unsatisfied with it, then online play isn't for you.

[Clerasil ToB]

@ Gorgo:

It is one of the natures of C/W that ALL THREE GAMES are played there. If there should be an Online 2E Continental, there also has to be an Online 1E Continental and Tribbles as well. So we need a platform that covers ALL those games without major cheating possibilties. And no, Lackey does not fulfill those standards for 1E perfectly.

I find your statement about pay the cost very interesting. Maybe you haven't read those posts last year: after I was announcing the entry fees for WORLDS, there was screaming and shouting, and how can it be we have to pay, and stuff like that. And that was for a 4 day event with lots of prices, a venue and so on.

Do you honestly believe that after the fact that it is obviously unbearable to charge entry fees for Worlds an entry fee for an Online Continental wouldn't be a problem? (and please an honest answer and not the "let's try it out" )

[Clerasil ToB]

I just know TTS is an awful fit, and I don’t want to have to wait three years for someone to program a replacement before we get high level tournaments online.

Sorry but that's simply not true. There are Regionals and Masters possible online. There is only one Worlds Event each year and only 3 Continental Events each year, so in fact there are only 4 events each year Online Play could not compete with. Masters are also high Level tournaments!!!

[Gorgo Primus]

Yes, you're right. Masters is a high level event and I misspoke when I said we get nothing. But it is decidedly seen and treated by most players as a lower level event than Continentals with lower stakes and less meaning. I believe the Organized Play Guide even refers to it as an "other high level option" or something to that effect in a section below that of the one on Worlds and Continentals. If you truly see it as a technicality of wordplay and not a significant distinction between the value of the two, then why do we have Masters but have consistently, incessantly, and firmly been told we can't have the latter because of concerns with our ability to uphold its integrity and manage its scale?


Having all three games together may be the nature of the events in the realm physical realm, but I don't see why 2E Online should be hobbled for the sake of our counterparts. If they have a means to play with the same safety and ease we do then welcome aboard, but if not I don't think it is fair for us to get tied down in this manner for their sake. Especially when the 2E Online community feels significantly larger than the 1E side, and Tribbles Online seems practically non-existent. I think mandating that if one, completely separate game run by the CC, can't be played Online safely we shouldn't be allowed to play at a higher level of tournament is somewhat absurd. I really do feel for the 1E Online players if Lackey can't cut it for them, but I don't even know if they even feel particularly strongly about having a tournament like this in the first place. Granted, I don't hang out in the 1E forums or their Discord channel, but I've only ever seen 2E Online players having these kinds of debates.

I can't speak to what happened when you asked for money for Worlds, as I wasn't there and wouldn't have been able to take part even if I was. I will say that the Online community is not the Offline community and the cost of running an Online tournament in and of itself ought to be much cheaper than physical given that nobody has to pay for booking a room or for flights or hotels. $X on top of all those costs might have caused people to complain, but $X on its own if we see where the money goes wouldn't cause issues imo. For what it's worth I wasn't going to say "just try it!" I was going to say "ask around/poll and find out how much people would be willing to pay".

[KillerB]

Still, expecting a better alternative to emerge is wishful thinking.
.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?

[Gorgo Primus]

Yeah, hope for and organize around building a better program for Lackey. Go for it.

But that's a completely different issue than we're dealing with here because all we have is Lackey. Lackey is what we're working with, and what we would be working with in tournaments for the foreseeable future because what you're hoping for does not exist yet.

[Latok]

TTS being better than Lackey is completely subjective and the 'push' for it last year was because a couple of people, that don't play the game they were collectors, made a module that wasn't intended to be playable at all, it was never going to pan out. The cost of TTS is relevant because it's not necessarily better, why pay money for no benefit.

Cheating, if you're actually concerned about someone cheating then don't play in the tournament. Cheating happens in person or online and it is rarely punished, it doesn't matter.

Cost, three easy options:
1) Don't do physical prizes and the tournament is free to run, why is a physical VP a prize for an online event any way?
2) Charge fees, people that want to play have to pay.
3) Opt-in, 1 and 2 combined. You can pay the full price, shipping plus $5 or whatever for the cost of the prize kit production, to get your prizes, or you don't pay anything and you don't get anything.

[Fritzinger]

Monty makes a good point.

Also not sure where the online players refused to pay an entry fee? Thank you Kris for subsidising but theres no reason the field can’t take it from here,

[bosskamiura]

Regarding Option 1 - I’ve asked/been approached to do Online Regionals and Masters before. I wanted to do them for free and offer no prizes so there wouldn’t need to be a fee on my part. Both Kris and Maggie shot this down citing the fees paid by TD’s are important revenue streams for The CC.

Apparently, you need to pay in order to play with the current administration.

TK

[Boffo97]

3) Opt-in, 1 and 2 combined. You can pay the full price, shipping plus $5 or whatever for the cost of the prize kit production, to get your prizes, or you don't pay anything and you don't get anything.

This would open the option of ordering a prize kit, immediately forfeiting, and keeping the cards you "won".