[Fritzinger]

I’ve always been baffled by the people who say there are no game length problems. But recently I’ve been playing a kill pile with my casual decks and suddenly my games are going under 60 minutes, easily. Even against 5sv solving 4 missions.

Is this why people are divided on game length issues? If you’ve not had problems with 75+ minute tournament games, is this the reason?

[Fritzinger]

In case my reasoning isn't clear, I'm talking about the time gained by not having both players attempting every turn because they have to rebuild and/or find a ship because of destaffing.

[Danny]

In case my reasoning isn't clear, I'm talking about the time gained by not having both players attempting every turn because they have to rebuild and/or find a ship because of destaffing.

This is my experience.

You end up with a greater proportion of the game time if you're able to stop your opponent's attempt with one or two well placed dilemmas, or if your pile's butchering their away teams.

Problems only arise when both players try this, but then I guess both players are having a greater number of turns, that don't take as much time.

[Naetor]

If you are playing a heavy kill pile, you are going to get more game time as the active player. Sometimes obnoxiously so. Kill piles also seem to be more reliable with so much stop prevention. You can always roll bad and give up a mission, but that's no different from giving one up from Central Command. And there's more far more upside. My attrition piles have moved more kill heavy over the past few years, to mixed effects.

If I was playing for Worlds in the meta today, I'd play a kill deck that has draw deck support in some way or another. I've learned it is more reliable to massacre your opponent than power through your missions.

But it is really difficult to judge the meta right now. There's a smattering of broken stuff out there that I am not sure if/when will be adjusted.

[KillerB]

There's a smattering of broken stuff out there that I am not sure if/when will be adjusted.

Casualties is getting errata... Where's the rest of the smatter?

Btw, you can always tell the overall health of 2E by how low the threshold for the definition of "broken" is. It's at an all-time low right now.

[Naetor]

There's a smattering of broken stuff out there that I am not sure if/when will be adjusted.

Casualties is getting errata... Where's the rest of the smatter?

Btw, you can always tell the overall health of 2E by how low the threshold for the definition of "broken" is. It's at an all-time low right now.

Infinite battle, easy multiple attribute reduction (probably the most OP but has gone unnoticed outside online play), pervasive Cardassians, recurring infinite Timescape/Outmatched lockouts, assassin lockouts, psudeo infinite lockouts via Pattern Loss and the other, dumb counter loss mechanics, and way too many brainless walls if you aren't playing Central Command yourself.

Just because a deck doesn't show up on your kitchen table doesn't mean there are no problems.

You say all-time low. This is the only time in the the last 10 years where I'm unwilling to play over the BS. Fortunately, a few obvious tweaks could improve things. Unfortunately, these are mostly going unnoticed or misdiagnosed (Casualties isn't the problem).

[StateofSTCCG]

The game is 60 minutes long. You need to make it 70 or 75, go for it.

[monty42]

[Neelix]

There's a smattering of broken stuff out there that I am not sure if/when will be adjusted.

Casualties is getting errata... Where's the rest of the smatter?

Btw, you can always tell the overall health of 2E by how low the threshold for the definition of "broken" is. It's at an all-time low right now.

Infinite battle, easy multiple attribute reduction (probably the most OP but has gone unnoticed outside online play), pervasive Cardassians, recurring infinite Timescape/Outmatched lockouts, assassin lockouts, psudeo infinite lockouts via Pattern Loss and the other, dumb counter loss mechanics, and way too many brainless walls if you aren't playing Central Command yourself.

Just because a deck doesn't show up on your kitchen table doesn't mean there are no problems.

You say all-time low. This is the only time in the the last 10 years where I'm unwilling to play over the BS. Fortunately, a few obvious tweaks could improve things. Unfortunately, these are mostly going unnoticed or misdiagnosed (Casualties isn't the problem).

Infinite Timescape/Outmatched lockouts? Ok, this I gotta hear.

As to the original topic at hand - I think the greater problem making the game seem like it can be almost endless are strong dilemma plays when the dilemmas don't get overcome. Nothing makes a game of 2E feel like a waste of your life than attempting a mission turn after turn and overcoming 0 dilemmas again and again. I'm fine with a kill pile, as long as at least ONE of the dilemmas that killed me gets overcome.

[jadziadax8]

As to the original topic at hand - I think the greater problem making the game seem like it can be almost endless are strong dilemma plays when the dilemmas don't get overcome. Nothing makes a game of 2E feel like a waste of your life than attempting a mission turn after turn and overcoming 0 dilemmas again and again. I'm fine with a kill pile, as long as at least ONE of the dilemmas that killed me gets overcome.

This is where I am. I don't mind an ACE/TT kill pile if it means that there are 8 dilemmas under the mission for my 2nd attempt.

But dilemmas like Nothing to Lose or Gorgan that my opponent knows is going to hit are a little hard to swallow. I pack a lot more BOT these days than I used to.

[KillerB]

Just because a deck doesn't show up on your kitchen table doesn't mean there are no problems.

You say all-time low. This is the only time in the the last 10 years where I'm unwilling to play over the BS. Fortunately, a few obvious tweaks could improve things. Unfortunately, these are mostly going unnoticed or misdiagnosed (Casualties isn't the problem).

I didn't say there aren't "problems". There's always "Problems", I just have a long memory of what a "problem" can be.

I'm not dismissing anything you're saying, and I asked because I wanted your perspective. It read as a bit on a run-on sentence, but I'll try to parse what you're trying to say.

If you think you're good at diagnosing problems then get on the errata team. I don't think anyone would oppose that idea.

[KillerB]

But dilemmas like Nothing to Lose or Gorgan that my opponent knows is going to hit are a little hard to swallow. I pack a lot more BOT these days than I used to.

Sure, they're a bit annoying because it takes little skill to make them hit. But they do under the mission, so it's not the worst thing.

[Naetor]

Infinite Timescape/Outmatched lockouts? Ok, this I gotta hear.

That's a Greg invention. It was using 2x Thought Maker and consumed Timescape/Outmatched(+100s of Infestations) to just play both for 0 and stack ~10 without consequence. Probably only realistic online, unless you want to cut out hundreds of cards.

Among my hate list it's far from the worse offender - but it is quintessentially thee you're going to bang your head on this mission forever combo. I've noticed this happen quite often lately, whether it's this or stacked Chula: The Games, the Pattern Loss stuff, or just hitting Nothing to Lose multiple times a game.

Coincidentally, I've also experienced many more instances of 1 mission attempt, 1 solve. I think the last 3 games against Cardassians, I've lost them all in 10 combined mission attempts.

I understand it is a game and you play however to win, but these extremes feel cheap. I like the concept built into 2e with progressing through all your missions, where little victories ultimately lead to the winner.

[Gorgo Primus]

Well we could always solve the Outmatched NPE once and for all by finally setting a Dilemma Pile size limit based on the largest someone could/has reasonably managed to bring to a physical game before...

[KillerB]

I have half a theory that people's negative opinion on the state of 2E is enhanced by the amount of online play they participate in, and people's positive opinion of the state of 2E is enhanced by the amount they travel to play 2E.