[Naetor]

Thoughts?

[Marquetry]

It's total bullshit We've been saying that for a while, games keep going longer with all the damn dilemmas that don't go under. My : This is a lot worse for game length than a couple downloads here and there, especially when the download has limited targets.

It's happened to us in locals, 4 or 5 attempts and maybe one under.

So: It is currently part of 2E, but shouldn't be

Edit: I don't want anyone who has used this type of pile to feel bad, it is a valid strategy. It's more of a design problem, especially when they don't agree it's a problem

[Armus]

Thoughts?

I need details.

If you forget to bring Archaeology and keep getting clowned by Gladiators, that's on you.

If you're reasonably prepared and that happens, then it sounds like a problem.

At least ACE/TT had to bury the mission to murder all of your people.

[Naetor]

Thoughts?

I need details.

If you forget to bring Archaeology and keep getting clowned by Gladiators, that's on you.

If you're reasonably prepared and that happens, then it sounds like a problem.

At least ACE/TT had to bury the mission to murder all of your people.

The context is probably what you imagine. Bouncing dilemmas that you cannot pass and get beaten over the head with over and over and over - until mercifully time is called.

[Armus]

Thoughts?

I need details.

If you forget to bring Archaeology and keep getting clowned by Gladiators, that's on you.

If you're reasonably prepared and that happens, then it sounds like a problem.

At least ACE/TT had to bury the mission to murder all of your people.

The context is probably what you imagine. Bouncing dilemmas that you cannot pass and get beaten over the head with over and over and over - until mercifully time is called.

Ok.... so why can't you pass them? Were you unprepared? Were you sacrificing redundancy for speed? Did you have a well-prepared opponent who surgically took out the right people (ala FSE/ Telepathic Deception years ago)?

Basically to me the bullshit factor is inversely proportional to the amount of work your opponent has to do to set it up, and if you bring a street rod to a demolition derby, my sympathy level goes way down.

[The Prefect]

Thoughts?

I need details.

If you forget to bring Archaeology and keep getting clowned by Gladiators, that's on you.

If you're reasonably prepared and that happens, then it sounds like a problem.

At least ACE/TT had to bury the mission to murder all of your people.

I agree. Definitely need a lot more context here.

[KillerB]

I said "when you reveal a X dilemma..." should've began AND ended with Chula.

[Armus]

I said "when you reveal a X dilemma..." should've began AND ended with Chula.

But it didn't. You get a Quantum Filament to land there's all sorts of bullshit dilemmas you can throw that will stop people and not go under.

But that's ok because there's both preventative and corrective answers to that problem that can be solved through deckbuilding and/ or gameplay.

The stuff that happens that has no answer (except for P&O, which is a separate problem) is the Design issue that needs fixed.

[Naetor]

Thoughts?

I need details.

If you forget to bring Archaeology and keep getting clowned by Gladiators, that's on you.

If you're reasonably prepared and that happens, then it sounds like a problem.

At least ACE/TT had to bury the mission to murder all of your people.

I agree. Definitely need a lot more context here.

It sounds like your vote is for the first option.

But I will say in this particular situation the draw deck support was basically nil.

[The Prefect]

I agree. Definitely need a lot more context here.

It sounds like your vote is for the first option.

But I will say in this particular situation the draw deck support was basically nil.

Not at all. I am saying I need more info before deciding between two extremes presented in this poll. Which is what I said in my post. Exactly what manifestation of bounce pile was being faced? Was it a doubler pile? Was it something else? Was the attempting player prepped to face such a dilemma pile? If it was a doubler pile, was the attempting player's deck really light on the skills that tend to be singled out by that pile (archaeology and transporters, for example)? In other words, I need more context.

If it was a doubler pile, I will say I have both used and faced doubler piles before. They can be quite frustrating for an unprepared deck. But, they also can be quite easily defeated by a player who is ready for them.

Which is much like most other dilemma strategies...

However, maybe I am missing something. That's why more context would help.

[Fritzinger]

Presumably some of these were early attempts while still building up. How many of these were while you had a full crew with all of the tricks?

[monty42]

I opted "All part of 2e".
Designers and playtesters are well aware of the overabundance of "bouncy" dilemmas. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but there have been very few (if any) new ones for quite a while now. So we're already trying to contain the problem.
What I'm trying to say is that these piles have been around for a while and the fact that they don't get abused more is quite surprising to me but there must be a reason for that.

Plus you need to combine that with the fact that your opponent was the guy who I consider the absolute Master of efficient dilemma play.

[Fritzinger]

I opted "All part of 2e".
Designers and playtesters are well aware of the overabundance of "bouncy" dilemmas. I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but there have been very few (if any) new ones for quite a while now. So we're already trying to contain the problem.
What I'm trying to say is that these piles have been around for a while and the fact that they don't get abused more is quite surprising to me but there must be a reason for that.

Plus you need to combine that with the fact that your opponent was the guy who I consider the absolute Master of efficient dilemma play.

Ben I tested one of my decks against an underlying loss pile that I copied from you (I think you paired it with Klingons) and I was horrified with how I couldn’t get anywhere. In other tests my deck dismantled a bunch of worlds 2019 piles and still came up short.

[Naetor]

Presumably some of these were early attempts while still building up. How many of these were while you had a full crew with all of the tricks?

I had to change the strategy part way in and just hope for dumb luck in his dilemma draws - so I guess my attempts became weaker, but they were probably smarter given the circumstances.

Oliver was playing TOS with Coordinated Counterattack and Sisko, so tricks wouldn't have really mattered anyways. Not sure if/when he'll post the deck, but it was basically the Arch/Trans stuff and all the walls.

This is the report and includes my deck: https://www.trekcc.org/tournament/index ... ntID=11444

[Armus]

Presumably some of these were early attempts while still building up. How many of these were while you had a full crew with all of the tricks?

I had to change the strategy part way in and just hope for dumb luck in his dilemma draws - so I guess my attempts became weaker, but they were probably smarter given the circumstances.

Oliver was playing TOS with Coordinated Counterattack and Sisko, so tricks wouldn't have really mattered anyways. Not sure if/when he'll post the deck, but it was basically the Arch/Trans stuff and all the walls.

This is the report and includes my deck: https://www.trekcc.org/tournament/index ... ntID=11444

Looking at your deck, I see decent event destruction but 3 Arch and 3 Transporters and no skill gain.

That's all you need to know.

With KWov in there Cluttering would have been a good add.

Also, the Promise if he's actually taking out your Arch/Transporters people.

The last time I faced this pile in HoF was 2 years ago and I was able to beat it twice in the same event with Central Command. Klingon Riker also clowns it but since neither of these are options in the current HoF format you have to look at other options, either with different personnel configurations or more cheater interrupts.

To me this looks like a case of you getting your pants pulled down against a good dilemma pile. The good news is you're a good enough player to make the necessary adjustments so you don't get caught again.