Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#526780
GooeyChewie wrote:
Danny wrote:Does this mean a card would have to actually read something like "Ignore the "No personnel may attempt this mission" text on this mission", or something more general like "Your personnel can attempt..." (as can>may)?
You would have to have text which specifically says something along the lines of “your personnel may attempt this mission regardless of effects which say personnel cannot attempt this mission,” similar to For the Cause or Javert.
Apologies if this is clear to everyone but me, but why are the attempting restrictions on Advanced Battle Simulation ignored when using Expand the Collective?

If, as you say, "The rulebook, page 16 wrote:
cannot / may not – Game text which specifically forbids an action cannot be overridden except by game text which specified what forbidding text is being overridden." doesn't let me attempt Alternate 1944 Earth with EtC, why does it let me attempt ABS? What's the difference?
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By The Prefect (Michael Shea)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Prefect
2E Sector 001 Regional Champion 2023
#526781
I'm certainly no rules expert, but here's my rationale:

Advanced Battle Simulation is an attempt-able mission - personnel may attempt it. But, the affiliation Borg are specifically prohibited.

Expand the Collective explicitly removes that affiliation restriction on an otherwise attempt-able mission.

Alternate 1944 Earth is not an attempt-able mission. All personnel, regardless of affiliation, are prohibited from attempting it. There are no affiliation restrictions for Expand the Collective to remove.
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Ambassador
By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#526783
The Prefect wrote:I'm certainly no rules expert, but here's my rationale:

Advanced Battle Simulation is an attempt-able mission - personnel may attempt it. But, the affiliation Borg are specifically prohibited.

Expand the Collective explicitly removes that affiliation restriction on an otherwise attempt-able mission.

Alternate 1944 Earth is not an attempt-able mission. All personnel, regardless of affiliation, are prohibited from attempting it. There are no affiliation restrictions for Expand the Collective to remove.
That does sound like a possible reason. I would point out though that EtC doesn't remove any affiliation restrictions, it just lets the Borg attempt missions that meet certain criteria, such at Plot Invasion using different requirements to solve it.
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By The Prefect (Michael Shea)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Prefect
2E Sector 001 Regional Champion 2023
#526785
In the case of Plot Invasion, you are correct in that there are no affiliation restrictions to remove. But, in this case, Expand the Collective also changes the mission requirements on an otherwise attempt-able mission. Again, since Alternate 1944 Earth can't be attempted by any personnel regardless of affiliation, you would be changing the mission requirements on an non-attempt-able mission.

Now, to me, that brings up an interesting question.

Expand the Collective won't let me attempt Alternate 1944 Earth, but does it still change the requirements so I can flip the mission using the skills and requirements listed on Expand the Collective instead of on the mission?
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#526793
The Prefect wrote:Now, to me, that brings up an interesting question.

Expand the Collective won't let me attempt Alternate 1944 Earth, but does it still change the requirements so I can flip the mission using the skills and requirements listed on Expand the Collective instead of on the mission?
My money's on no - the card specifically states "if their personnel on this planet have this mission's printed requirements".
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#526794
T-Ricks wrote:Apologies if this is clear to everyone but me, but why are the attempting restrictions on Advanced Battle Simulation ignored when using Expand the Collective?

If, as you say, "The rulebook, page 16 wrote:
cannot / may not – Game text which specifically forbids an action cannot be overridden except by game text which specified what forbidding text is being overridden." doesn't let me attempt Alternate 1944 Earth with EtC, why does it let me attempt ABS? What's the difference?
"Any affiliation (except [Bor]) may attempt this mission" does not specifically forbid [Bor] from attempting the mission. It just means you need something else to allow them to attempt the mission. In this case, that something else is EtC. In the case of Evade Borg Vessel, it's additional text on the same card.

"No personnel may attempt this mission" does specifically forbid personnel from attempting the mission. EtC gets around the fact that nothing else says you can attempt the mission, but not around the fact that the mission says personnel cannot attempt it.
The Prefect wrote:Expand the Collective won't let me attempt Alternate 1944 Earth, but does it still change the requirements so I can flip the mission using the skills and requirements listed on Expand the Collective instead of on the mission?
In addition to the point that Danny brings up, EtC only gives the mission new requirements while your personnel are attempt it.
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Ambassador
By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#526832
"Any affiliation (except [Bor]) may attempt this mission" does not specifically forbid [Bor] from attempting the mission."

While I concede to the majority, and am no longer arguing the point, you must admit Nathan, that the above sentence does sound silly.

Rick
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#526834
T-Ricks wrote:"Any affiliation (except [Bor]) may attempt this mission" does not specifically forbid [Bor] from attempting the mission."

While I concede to the majority, and am no longer arguing the point, you must admit Nathan, that the above sentence does sound silly.

Rick
Let's try a re-write:

"Any affiliation (except [Bor] ) may attempt this mission" does not preclude [Bor] personnel from participating in a mission attempt, as long as there's at least one non- [Bor] personnel to legally begin such a mission attempt.
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#526836
Related question:

When you solve one of these double sided missions and flip it, does back side count as a planet solved for victory conditions? Alternatively, if one side was planet and the back was space (eg Genesis planet errata), if you solved the planet side, do you now have a complete planet or space mission? Or neither?
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#526837
Naetor wrote:Related question:

When you solve one of these double sided missions and flip it, does back side count as a planet solved for victory conditions? Alternatively, if one side was planet and the back was space (eg Genesis planet errata), if you solved the planet side, do you now have a complete planet or space mission? Or neither?
You command whichever side is face-up, and flipping a mission does not change the mission's complete/incomplete status. Genesis Planet could be changed to a two-sided mission, planet on front and space on back with the order flipping it, without changing how it impacts the win conditions. (I'd support such an erratum, because I'd like to have the visual reference of whether the mission is planet or space at the time.)
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#526885
GooeyChewie wrote:
Naetor wrote:Related question:

When you solve one of these double sided missions and flip it, does back side count as a planet solved for victory conditions? Alternatively, if one side was planet and the back was space (eg Genesis planet errata), if you solved the planet side, do you now have a complete planet or space mission? Or neither?
You command whichever side is face-up, and flipping a mission does not change the mission's complete/incomplete status. Genesis Planet could be changed to a two-sided mission, planet on front and space on back with the order flipping it, without changing how it impacts the win conditions. (I'd support such an erratum, because I'd like to have the visual reference of whether the mission is planet or space at the time.)
And the designers involved discussed just such an interaction, which is why both Temporal missions are the same type on front and back. At one point, the front side of Alternate 1944 Earth was a space mission where the Enterprise was thrown into the past. The question was asked what happens to the crew on the planet when the mission flipped back. Dual-sided missions say that the cards stay there. So the personnel are just floating in space. But 2E doesn't say they die or have a way to beam them onto a ship. Beaming is done from headquarters-to-ship, ship-to-ship, or ship-to-planet (and vice versa). If the personnel are not on a ship, they just sit there. A story shift was the easiest solution. Ahhh. Design fun.
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#573513
Temporal Mission thread necro!

If I complete Na'kuhl Prime, Fight for Dominance, then flip it (so it now shows Alternate 1944 Earth, Restore Timeline), then on the following turn play a Legal Proceedings upon it, does my opponent need

  • Exobiology, Leadership, Physics, and Strength>24, or
  • Exobiology, Law, Leadership, Physics, and Strength>24
to flip it back?
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Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#573514
Alternate 1944 Earth, Restore Timeline wrote:At the start of each opponent's turn, if their personnel on this planet have this mission's printed requirements, flip this mission. Otherwise, you may take a dilemma from beneath this mission and place it beneath your non-headquarters mission.
"printed" doesn't allow modifications.
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#573516
eberlems wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:37 pm
Alternate 1944 Earth, Restore Timeline wrote:At the start of each opponent's turn, if their personnel on this planet have this mission's printed requirements, flip this mission. Otherwise, you may take a dilemma from beneath this mission and place it beneath your non-headquarters mission.
"printed" doesn't allow modifications.

Thought that might be the case, but good to get clarification. Won't be wasting my time with that then :thumbsup:
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E European Continental Champion 2023
#573522
eberlems wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:37 pm
Alternate 1944 Earth, Restore Timeline wrote:At the start of each opponent's turn, if their personnel on this planet have this mission's printed requirements, flip this mission. Otherwise, you may take a dilemma from beneath this mission and place it beneath your non-headquarters mission.
"printed" doesn't allow modifications.
but score 5 points ;)
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