[sandy]

Sorry for spamming, this will be my last. I found this answer very curious.

I could, if I wanted this to be a sanctioned event. I do not. The restrictions around having a sanctioned event aren't something I'm interested in. Specifically, I want to be able to run the tournament in a manner I choose with respect to format and prizes.

Exactly what format limitations do you find chaffing?

There is no limitation on prize support I'm aware of. I buy and give away prizes at my own high-level events and have for years. I've probably spent thousands of dollars of my own money over the last 5 or 6 years doing so. Never once have I been asked by the CC not to do that. So what limit on prize support do you think you're bumping up against?

There's a set of sanctioned formats - if I want to invite people to play in a format that's not one of those, or if I want to alter the structure of match play etc. it's not clear that I'd be able to do so.

While I appreciate your anecdotal story about not running into any issues, I've seen so far that relying on uniform enforcement of rules from the CC is perhaps unwise. If I wanted to give out tower of commerce branded prizes at an official CC event, you're saying that wouldn't cause any issues? Despite the ridiculous response this has gotten so far on the forums?

[The Prefect]

Are you claiming that the CC has nothing to do with star trek ccg tournaments they don't run?
I thought they were stewards of the game as a whole - more players, regardless of what tournaments they attend, is good for the game.

If the position of the CC is that only their sanctioned events are allowed to be promoted on this site, then that leaves me no choice but to not promote events here and to move my activity elsewhere, possibly to the point of having a separate website and forum. This isn't something I want to do, but I will if that's the policy of the CC.

I would love for there to be choices around events, so people can play in their houses for free with their friends or have big 100 person tournaments in larger venues. If the CC's reaction to me actively trying to grow the game is to act protective of its brand and not act as an inclusive hub for the game, then I'm not sure I want to contribute to it.

No, I am not claiming that. I can't claim anything on behalf of the CC. But, then, you know that.

I do think I can tell where this conversation is going, and I think I've learned something. I apologize for taking up your time.

[The Prefect]

Sorry for spamming, this will be my last. I found this answer very curious.

I could, if I wanted this to be a sanctioned event. I do not. The restrictions around having a sanctioned event aren't something I'm interested in. Specifically, I want to be able to run the tournament in a manner I choose with respect to format and prizes.

Exactly what format limitations do you find chaffing?

There is no limitation on prize support I'm aware of. I buy and give away prizes at my own high-level events and have for years. I've probably spent thousands of dollars of my own money over the last 5 or 6 years doing so. Never once have I been asked by the CC not to do that. So what limit on prize support do you think you're bumping up against?

There's a set of sanctioned formats - if I want to invite people to play in a format that's not one of those, or if I want to alter the structure of match play etc. it's not clear that I'd be able to do so.

While I appreciate your anecdotal story about not running into any issues, I've seen so far that relying on uniform enforcement of rules from the CC is perhaps unwise. If I wanted to give out tower of commerce branded prizes at an official CC event, you're saying that wouldn't cause any issues? Despite the ridiculous response this has gotten so far on the forums?

Again, you know I can't speak for the CC. Your continued attempt to corner me into doing so or to misconstrue what I've aid as a statement of policy with some authority behind it is off-putting.

But to answer your question, anecdotally, at the Texas Chainsaw Masters event I attended, John gave out branded prizes. Officers of the CC were in attendance. No one objected. I have no reason to assume they would, but you'd have to ask to be sure.

[The Ninja Scot]

So, here are my two cents -

1) I want people to play this game. I do not care if this is in their homes, in unsanctioned tournaments, in sanctioned tournaments or anywhere else. I want people to play and enjoy all the variants of this game that people want to play.

2) I do not have any issues with tournaments being posted on trekcc, facebook or anywhere else that gets the message out.

3) Could I see a possible issue with someone seeing the Tower of Commerce event and thought that it was part of a sanctioned Trekcc tournament? Sure. Is it something that could have been easily clarified before all of this essentially blew up? Yes. Personally, if the post simply had this clarification then I couldn't see *any* reason why it couldn't be posted here or in the Organized Play thread or anywhere else.

That's it, that's all I have.

Michael

[sandy]

It's incredibly frustrating to talk to you when all your questions are hypothetical situations about the CC's position, but you won't answer any clarification around what exactly you're asking.

You asked me what restrictions I was chafing against. I told you - and you took that answer as though I was trying to trap you somehow.

I'm being 100% transparent with my motivations and intentions - can you say the same? If you want to expose some sort of conspiracy, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

I take my "nerd job" as CEO of the Tower of Commerce as seriously as I take my actual job, and that means saying what I mean.

Here's a summary of my positions, for easy reference:

- I don't intend to go through the OP sanctioning process for this or any future event, until and unless someone officially from OP has a chat with me (1:1 or publicly) about our mutual goals and assures me that I'll be able to run tournaments the way I want to encourage new players.

- I won't be using CC names (as defined in the OP document) for any of my tournaments

- I won't be posting about tournaments or results in this forum, until and unless I get official clarification on the promotion of unsanctioned posts.

- I currently don't have any plans to counterprogram or otherwise detract from CC tournaments. Of course, since I don't check the forums on a regular basis, it's possible that inadvertently we'll schedule an event on the same day (e.g. if it's a popular holiday weekend, or during a convention)


On a more personal note, this is about the least effective use of my time, both from my "real job" and my "nerd job" - I would much rather get closer to releasing my online play platform, or work on any number of other Tower of Commerce projects than try to defend myself here.
I am running tournaments, there's really no chance of anyone convincing me to not run them, and it's up to you (collectively, members of the forum/CC) to decide if you want to be a part of it or not.

I apologize for breaking any rules here that I wasn't aware of, but this has proven to be a good reminder of why I don't post here.

[The Prefect]

On a more personal note, this is about the least effective use of my time, both from my "real job" and my "nerd job" - I would much rather get closer to releasing my online play platform, or work on any number of other Tower of Commerce projects than try to defend myself here.

I'm sorry if you feel put out. Thanks for your time.

[Honest]

Are you claiming that the CC has nothing to do with star trek ccg tournaments they don't run?

How can they have anything to do with events run deliberately outside their jurisdiction? In fact some members of ToC have celebrated they are going to run things outside CC's control.

I am glad you guys are running your own events, but you seem to want it both ways

Honest

[The Prefect]

Are you claiming that the CC has nothing to do with star trek ccg tournaments they don't run?

How can they have anything to do with events run deliberately outside their jurisdiction? In fact some members of ToC have celebrated they are going to run things outside CC's control.

I am glad you guys are running your own events, but you seem to want it both ways

Honest

This sums up my feelings exactly!

I am glad - even excited - at the prospect of a growing 2e community. But, we're either going to be working hand-in-hand together with a high degree of mutual autonomy, complementing one another; or we're in competition with one another since we both run events aimed at attracting the same player base. There doesn't seem to be any magical middle ground in which ToC gets the best of both options.

And, before anyone assumes I just have a grudge against ToC, I would very much prefer the former option: working hand-in-hand together with a high degree of mutual autonomy, complementing one another. But that requires communication, cooperation, and compromise from both sides. The CC has to be willing to work with the ToC and give a little. The ToC has to be willing to do the same. I hope we can reach that point before we rip the community apart in ways that can't be repaired.

[Armus]

Please define "mutual autonomy" ... at first blush it sounds like a contradiction in terms.

[The Prefect]

Please define "mutual autonomy" ... at first blush it sounds like a contradiction in terms.

Maybe that's not the proper way to express what I was trying to say... apologies.

What I mean is each organization has autonomy over their own operations.

For example, the CC doesn't tell ToC how to run their events (beyond conditions related to sanctioning if the ToC wants an event sanctioned - the ToC would be under no obligation to sanction their events through the CC). Likewise, the ToC doesn't interfere with the CC designing cards. These would just be two examples of course.

In my ideal scenario, this would go beyond, "you leave us alone, we leave you alone." That sort of cold relationship inevitably results in mutual distrust and antagonism since we both share the same player base - it would be like two divorced parents refusing to talk to each other and then bad-mouthing each other to their kids... the eventual conflict becomes unavoidable.

In my ideal scenario, we'd be partners, in a sense. We mutually support and promote one anothers' events. We wouldn't schedule over one another. And, if the powers-that-be could arrive at a mutually beneficial understanding, this arrangement could even be formalized.

The point is, we both exist, we both have autonomy over our own affairs, we both compete in a healthy sense of the word (we'd both be innovating so we'd both be driven to keep-up with one another, as it were), but we'd also support and complement one another because, after all, we're all playing the same game.

Does that make more sense?

[The Prefect]

To elaborate on why I think the "you leave us alone, we leave you alone" relationship will ultimately be to our mutual detriment:

• It may lead to further community disunity as these sort of factional allegiances become entrenched. I imagine there will be players (and by players, here and elsewhere I mean all players - volunteer and non-volunteer alike) who will decide to only ever support the CC or only ever support the ToC.
• It almost certainly will lead to competition over the player-base, even if that competition is unintentional. I tend to think of players of Trek CCG is similar to a finite commodity, if you'll pardon the analogy. We have what we have, and it's very, very hard to make more. And, even if we can make more, the rate of recruitment and retention almost never exceeds the rate of attrition. So, it's an ever-shrinking resource. Further, players only have so much money and time to spend traveling per year, so they're left to chose: do they go to this big CC event, or that big ToC event?
• It's a bad look for the brand overall. Imagine how silly, or even petty, it's going to look when both the ToC and the CC have competing events at separate tables at GenCon, or DragonCon. How long is that sort of antagonistic relationship sustainable? How long before the rancor tht inevitably comes from that relationship starts to turn players off?

I guess what I am saying is - and I am saying this to the ToC and the CC at the same time - is that we have a lot to gain by working together, and a lot to lose by not doing so.

[Naetor]

I think they could co-exist- they seem to be targeting different folks. In order of competition:

The Masters level events have basically been glorified Regionals with local players, maybe some nearby travelers, and 1-2 people from outside the region.

The TOC events seem to be targeting people that travel and want to use Star Trek as vacation. This Sovereign level event in Vegas demonstrates that. No local group there.

The Continentals level events function as a combination of those two, where you get heavy local participation and many flying in for vacation. Worlds is just that + some foreigners. That's why Orlando with their tourism and large concentration of nearby players was a good choice - in addition to Eric being 2e OG.

Online, is kind of it's own thing and has it's own players that may travel or not.

This year, obviously, is a little weird with both Continentals and Worlds- for the first time in 3 years scheduled to the US. It's easy to see how the people that either a) travel to events; and/or b) play in Continentals level events online want to perceive the major event they put on this year as the de facto Continenals/Worlds in their absence. OP decided to not have those events this year, so those respective groups decided to organize their own thing. I think if they want to call their event- whatever- why it's such a bad thing. They are just trying to encourage play.

[Armus]

I registered the Corbett COVID Caravan Spectacular in the CC's tournament system, ran the event in accordance with the CCOPG (level 1 event), and even gave out CC foils for prizes (what few i had left. The lack of tournament kits in the promenade isn't helping but that's a discussion for a different thread).

By all accounts it was a successful event.

It was also the inaugural Tower of Commerce Oberth-class event.

Everybody had a good time. Cards were played. The day was a success.

Sure it was a random local in Northern Alabama with 6 players, but it was something else too... a start.

There's no need for conflict, especially if the let the players play mantra is sincere.

[The Prefect]

Of course we can coexist. But, it's the manner in which we coexist that matters.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I view the ambitions of ToC as stretching beyond just this year. And I don't mean anything bad by that. They want to grow. Good for them!

And, if they want to grow their organization, as they have said they intend to, we will start to bump up against one another more and more. If they intend to schedule events at cons, which they have indicated they want to do, that bumping-up will be very public and potentially embarrassing for both ... "Wait, you guys are playing Star Trek 2e? Those guys are playing Star Trek 2e over there. Oh, you guys don't talk to each other?" It's a bad look. And, totally unnecessary.

Right now, there's mutual distrust. Can anyone blame either party? Let's just take a look at four examples of what has happened so far:

• Sandy more-or-less fell off the map in 2010 as far as 2e and the CC are concerned - 1 game played between 2010 and 2019. A total of 60 forum posts, and most of those related to some dispute involving the CC (the CC vs. John Corbett; the CC vs. ToC; etc.). Then, here he comes in 2020 to tell us all what we've been doing wrong this whole time. Even if he's right about some things, that could easily offend folks who been putting in time keeping this game alive over the eight years he was gone.
• John Corbett, who has a leadership position in the ToC, has done his best to more-or-less turn The Dojo's 2e thread into a 24-hour "I hate 2e design and the CC too" support group. He also said, before he was banned from here, that the ToC (it wasn't called that then) wanted to replace CC Organized Play. Now, I get that Sandy has since clarified that John isn't speaking for the ToC when he says what he says on The Dojo and that the ToC actually doesn't have plans to replace the CC's OP. But, I think that initial interaction with John when he was claiming to speak on the ToC's behalf did some damage and some of us can't help now associating John and what he says about us with the ToC.
• I incorrectly associated a couple of players who tend to be vocal critics of 2e design and the CC in general - especially of late - with the ToC, based on my experience with those players individually, on my limited knowledge of their personal relationships with Sandy, and what I observed on The Dojo the last time I logged in. That was a mistake on my part and it was regrettable. I should not have been so careless so as to make that association or even assign motive in that specific case. I have apologized, but even though it's clear I don't speak for the CC I am associated with it since I am a volunteer and an active forum poster, so I imagine it did some damage to our relationship.
• Brian (JeBus) edits a post of Sandy's promoting a ToC event. Now, whether or not the post was in violation, this was potentially the least diplomatic and most confrontational way to handle the issue. For example, someone from OP could have reached out to him privately and asked him to edit or clarify. Then, if Sandy refused to do so, at least an attempt was made. Or, a moderator could have asked Sandy to move his post to the All Things Trek thread and explained why. And, if he refused, again at least the attempt would have been made. So, to him, it feels like we're trying to prevent him from promoting his event, and that too has done some damage.

Now, I hope that none of this is so bad that we can't move past it. But, I do know that if our way forward of one of benign(?) neglect that the mistrust created by these events will tend to grow, metastasize, and calcify until that mistrust is too pervasive and too hardened to overcome. And that truly would be unfortunate for two organizations that are in fact made up by people who share a common passion, a common interest, and who basically all want this game to survive and even grow if possible. This is all the more unfortunate since many, if not most, of us consider one another part of an extended friendship group. Some of us, in fact, are quite close and have a long history.

It just feels like we have so much we could build on if we try. And, if it helps, I'll again sincerely apologize for anything I've done that might have made our working together harder.

[The Prefect]

I should add that none of the above is intended as a criticism of anyone else or an attempt to re-open old wounds or re-litigate old arguments. I'm just trying to make a frank and honest appraisal of how some of the actions committed by parties associated with both the CC and the ToC have damaged our relationship thus far. I am only doing this because I think truth has to come before reconciliation.

I sincerely hope good things can come out of this discussion.