Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#548793
Failing a mission happens when you check the mission requirements and do not have them. If all your personnel are stopped, you don't get to the check the mission requirements step, and thus do not trigger any when you fail effects.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#548801
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:52 pm Failing a mission happens when you check the mission requirements and do not have them. If all your personnel are stopped, you don't get to the check the mission requirements step, and thus do not trigger any when you fail effects.
Citation needed.

This doesn't track. Otherwise, how does a mission attempt ever end and allow you to do other things on your turn?
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#548820
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:51 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:52 pm Failing a mission happens when you check the mission requirements and do not have them. If all your personnel are stopped, you don't get to the check the mission requirements step, and thus do not trigger any when you fail effects.
Citation needed.

This doesn't track. Otherwise, how does a mission attempt ever end and allow you to do other things on your turn?
I think you still do the check, but since your personnel are stopped and "During your turn, effects from your opponent’s cards may not include or consider your stopped personnel" (rulebook, pg 20) Tain doesn't have any targets anyways.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#548823
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:51 pm Citation needed.
The Rulebook, Page 12, 'Facing Dilemmas' wrote:If all the personnel you have attempting a mission are killed, stopped,
or otherwise removed from the mission attempt, your personnel do not
face any remaining dilemmas in your opponent’s dilemma stack. Instead,
those remaining dilemmas are overcome.
Note that this passage says nothing about failing the mission. The rulebook mentions the word "fail" (or a variation thereof) four times, three in reference to failing a mission and one in reference to a dilemma failing to be valid:
The Rulebook, Page 12, 'Checking Mission Requirements' wrote:If you cannot meet the mission’s requirements, your mission attempt
has failed, and all your remaining personnel in that mission attempt are
stopped. You can try again later to attempt that mission on this turn
or following turns, either with different personnel, or with the same
personnel if they become unstopped.
The Rulebook, Page 16, 'attempting missions' wrote:5. Once the dilemma stack is empty and no response actions adding
dilemmas are used, it is time to complete the mission with the
remaining unstopped personnel.
c. Active Player shows all requirements needed to complete the mission.
If he or she cannot, all of the personnel involved are stopped and all
“When . . . fail a mission attempt” triggers and “When . . . mission
attempt fails” triggers process.
The only time you "fail" a mission attempt is in step 5c, as part of Checking Mission Requirements, which you only do with unstopped personnel. If all your personnel are killed, stopped or otherwise removed from the mission attempt, you simply no longer have any personnel attempt the mission and can go about executing other orders.

There was a debate a little while back on this topic with regards to the U.S.S. Sutherland. It actually left off somewhat ambiguous as to whether you should check requirements with no personnel remaining in the mission attempt. Perhaps we should page the Rules Mistress on that topic. But for Tain (and Retaya), even if it is ruled that you still check requirements with no remaining personnel, that step would still come after all the personnel are stopped and they would have no targets.


For the sake of completeness, here's the other mention of "fail" in the Rulebook:
The Rulebook, Page 16, 'attempting missions' wrote:3.Facing Dilemmas
f. Check dilemma for duplication, type, and cost. If it fails any of these,
it is overcome. Otherwise, the dilemma’s cost is deducted from the
total allowed.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#548824
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:21 pm
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:51 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:52 pm Failing a mission happens when you check the mission requirements and do not have them. If all your personnel are stopped, you don't get to the check the mission requirements step, and thus do not trigger any when you fail effects.
Citation needed.

This doesn't track. Otherwise, how does a mission attempt ever end and allow you to do other things on your turn?
I think you still do the check, but since your personnel are stopped and "During your turn, effects from your opponent’s cards may not include or consider your stopped personnel" (rulebook, pg 20) Tain doesn't have any targets anyways.
This tracks a lot better. I thought Nathan was right, but not for the reason given. Thanks for filling the gap. :cheersL:
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548825
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:36 pm
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:21 pm
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:51 pm

Citation needed.

This doesn't track. Otherwise, how does a mission attempt ever end and allow you to do other things on your turn?
I think you still do the check, but since your personnel are stopped and "During your turn, effects from your opponent’s cards may not include or consider your stopped personnel" (rulebook, pg 20) Tain doesn't have any targets anyways.
This tracks a lot better. I thought Nathan was right, but not for the reason given. Thanks for filling the gap. :cheersL:
My thought would be that when all your personnel are stopped, you fail the mission - not that there's additional "attempting a mission" steps with [null] personnel.

I would like some clarity in the rules one way or another.

Either way, I'm never paying 4 for Tain anyways. :)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#548826
This part is actually pretty clear. The all-stop dilemma hits and stops everyone before the mission check step. You want to call it [null], go ahead, but it's clearly an A -> B procedural: You don't check for the solve until after all dilemmas have been resolved. The lack of any unstopped people at B doesn't change the facts that a) it happens after A and b) Tain triggers at B.

Citation: Rulebook pages 11-12.
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#548835
Naetor wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:09 am Can [null] personnel of [null] affiliation begin a mission attempt at an "Any affiliation may attempt this mission"?
Is [null] zero? If so, would you risk attempting with [null], only to have the opponent Uninvited a Timescape?

Back on track, I guess Tain's good for catching those like Lore (who aren't stopped by dilemmas), or, obviously, against a stack of filters that doesn't end in a wall.
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548836
Danny wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:21 am
Naetor wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:09 am Can [null] personnel of [null] affiliation begin a mission attempt at an "Any affiliation may attempt this mission"?
Is [null] zero? If so, would you risk attempting with [null], only to have the opponent Uninvited a Timescape?

Back on track, I guess Tain's good for catching those like Lore (who aren't stopped by dilemmas), or, obviously, against a stack of filters that doesn't end in a wall.
I was thinking along the lines of infinite [null] attempts at Collapse Anti-Time Anomaly for as many Q downloads you want.
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