Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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Ambassador
By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#559156
Assume you do not have a ship in play or in your hand. Can you play Christening even if you don't have 3 counters available to spend? I get that after it's played it is cost minus three, but wouldn't you need the three counters at least in order to play it to activate it's text? Other cards say something like "When you play this card . . ." to reduce it's cost, but Christening does not.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
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2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#559158
T-Ricks wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:48 am Assume you do not have a ship in play or in your hand. Can you play Christening even if you don't have 3 counters available to spend? I get that after it's played it is cost minus three, but wouldn't you need the three counters at least in order to play it to activate it's text? Other cards say something like "When you play this card . . ." to reduce it's cost, but Christening does not.
You can play it because you know that you meet the conditions for the discount.

Note that this is different from a card like Ptol. For him, you have to have all 5 counters available, because you do not know what is on top of your opponent's dilemma pile.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#559162
interesting... what if I used Laurens Order and revealed the top dilemma last turn and it stayed there? Then it is knowledge everybody has. Following your argumentation I should be able to play him with only 4 counters left.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#559169
Enabran wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:51 am interesting... what if I used Laurens Order and revealed the top dilemma last turn and it stayed there? Then it is knowledge everybody has. Following your argumentation I should be able to play him with only 4 counters left.
The important part is not that you know; it's that you have access to the information at the time you are playing the card. You can look at your cards in play and in your hand when you are deciding whether or not to play Christening. You cannot look at the top cards of your opponent's dilemma pile when you are deciding whether or not to play Ptol. Thus you still need to have the 5 counters available.

I've seen multiple instances of players playing Ptol forgetting that the opponent's dilemma pile had been shuffled since they last manipulated it.
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North American OP Coordinator
By The Ninja Scot (Michael Van Breemen)
 - North American OP Coordinator
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E World Champion 2023
Tribbles World Champion 2022
The Traveler
1E North American Continental Champion 2023
2E North American Continental Champion 2023
  Trek Masters 1E Champion 2024
1E American National Champion 2023
1E Canadian National Champion 2023
2E Canadian National Champion 2023
2E  National Runner-Up 2023
2E American National Second Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#559196
Some cards have abilities that enable them to be played at a cost lower
than their printed cost. If this cost reduction is based on information that
you would normally have access to; such as face up cards in play, cards you
command, cards in your hand, cards in a discard pile and cards removed
from the game; then the card may be played without the full cost in counters
available to that player. For example, Julian Bashir (Rebel Captain) reads:
“When you play this personnel, choose an opponent. For each headquarters
mission he or she commands, this personnel is cost –3.” If your opponent
commands one headquarters mission, you may play Julian Bashir with only
three counters remaining in your Play and Draw Cards segment because the
number of headquarters your opponent commands is information you can
check at any time.

Information that you would not normally have access to; such as face down
cards an opponent commands, cards in an opponent’s hand, cards in a deck
and cards in a dilemma pile; may only be used for a single cost reduction
ability, even if that information has not changed when you want to use it
again. For example, Charvanek (Neutral Zone Commander) reads: “When
you play this personnel, reveal an opponent’s hand. For each personnel
revealed, this personnel is cost –1.” You must have at least three counters
remaining in your Play and Draw Cards segment to play Charvanek because
the cards in your opponent’s hand is information you would not normally
have access to. You must have enough counters remaining in your Play and
Draw Cards segment to play another personnel discounted in a similar way
in the same turn because the cards in your opponent’s hand could have
changed (even if they have not.)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#559198
Enabran wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:59 pm I could play Nog, Eager Cadet, or Worf, Principled Warrior or Spock, Science Officer to get that information
You could, but that's not the point.

The rule states you have to use the information available in the context of playing the card. Players might have access to additional information, but cards don't.

So P'Tol doesn't know you played Nog or whoever and saw the top 4 cards of your opponent's dilemma pile, he just knows he costs 5 until he sees the top 4 dilemmas in the context of playing him for the cost reduction, which means you need 5 going in.

Contrast that with, say Julian Bashir, Rebel Captain. Julian costs -3 for each HQ an opponent commands. As such, you can look across the table, see your opponent's HQ, and know that Bashir costs 3 so you only need 3 counters available instead of 6.

I've seen this argument before, and it's fair to say maybe the rules *should be* changed to something else, but until/ unless we do, the above explanation is what the rules *are* - for better or for worse.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#559203
Armus wrote:I've seen this argument before, and it's fair to say maybe the rules *should be* changed to something else, but until/ unless we do, the above explanation is what the rules *are* - for better or for worse.
I really do NOT want it changed. Back when Ptol put the dilemmas back on top, I've seen players say "oh, it should be the same as last turn" having forgotten about some odd effect that caused a shuffle. If you do that and it turns out Ptol is overcosted, it's really difficult to set that right mid-game, since your opponent got to see a bundle of cards they shouldn't have seen.
WeyounsLastClone wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:37 pm I guess there is no such card right now, but if there'd be a card that said 'when you reveal your hand, you must draw a card', you could be in a situation that you couldn't play Christening anymore, right?
I would argue that even if that card made you draw a ship, it wasn't there when you revealed your hand, so you'd still get the -3.
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