Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
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Community Contributor
#575501
Cmdr Xym wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:41 pm Because we now have a new Rules Master and this question was never answered...

Am I allowed to freely examine the cards beneath my Ferenginar?
It appears that cards under Ferenginar cannot be examined per the current rules, unfortunately. I'll ping the rules team to (A) see if they agree with that assessment and (B) are interested in tweaking the rules so that you can examine those cards.
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By Cmdr Xym (Joseph Bazemore)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#575532
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:25 am
Cmdr Xym wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:41 pm Because we now have a new Rules Master and this question was never answered...

Am I allowed to freely examine the cards beneath my Ferenginar?
It appears that cards under Ferenginar cannot be examined per the current rules, unfortunately. I'll ping the rules team to (A) see if they agree with that assessment and (B) are interested in tweaking the rules so that you can examine those cards.
Out of curiosity, exactly how is that backed up by the current rules?
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#575550
Cmdr Xym wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:23 pm Out of curiosity, exactly how is that backed up by the current rules?
I think it’s more a matter of the rules don’t ever say you can examine cards beneath your Ferenginar. Obviously Decipher intended you to be able to do so, but they were not always good about updating the rule book. And by the time the CC took over everybody was so used to it the question didn’t usually come up.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#575556
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:09 pm
Cmdr Xym wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:23 pm Out of curiosity, exactly how is that backed up by the current rules?
I think it’s more a matter of the rules don’t ever say you can examine cards beneath your Ferenginar. Obviously Decipher intended you to be able to do so, but they were not always good about updating the rule book. And by the time the CC took over everybody was so used to it the question didn’t usually come up.
Currently, you can't examine your draw deck prior to deciding if you want to make a download. Shouldn't that same thought process apply to cards under Ferenginar?

Obviously, if a card specifically tells you to get/exchange a card from beneath Ferenginar, then you would look, but otherwise, why should you be allowed to freely examine these cards? Isn't part of the strategy of using Ferenginar keeping track of what's under it?
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By Cmdr Xym (Joseph Bazemore)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#575563
T-Ricks wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:16 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:09 pm
Cmdr Xym wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:23 pm Out of curiosity, exactly how is that backed up by the current rules?
I think it’s more a matter of the rules don’t ever say you can examine cards beneath your Ferenginar. Obviously Decipher intended you to be able to do so, but they were not always good about updating the rule book. And by the time the CC took over everybody was so used to it the question didn’t usually come up.
Currently, you can't examine your draw deck prior to deciding if you want to make a download. Shouldn't that same thought process apply to cards under Ferenginar?

Obviously, if a card specifically tells you to get/exchange a card from beneath Ferenginar, then you would look, but otherwise, why should you be allowed to freely examine these cards? Isn't part of the strategy of using Ferenginar keeping track of what's under it?
I think the fact that the question is being asked and that there's no definitive reason/rationale one way or the other kinda indicates there need to be an official ruling for this card.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#575566
T-Ricks wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:16 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:09 pm
Cmdr Xym wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:23 pm Out of curiosity, exactly how is that backed up by the current rules?
I think it’s more a matter of the rules don’t ever say you can examine cards beneath your Ferenginar. Obviously Decipher intended you to be able to do so, but they were not always good about updating the rule book. And by the time the CC took over everybody was so used to it the question didn’t usually come up.
Currently, you can't examine your draw deck prior to deciding if you want to make a download. Shouldn't that same thought process apply to cards under Ferenginar?

Obviously, if a card specifically tells you to get/exchange a card from beneath Ferenginar, then you would look, but otherwise, why should you be allowed to freely examine these cards? Isn't part of the strategy of using Ferenginar keeping track of what's under it?
I would say that's OBE now that putting bunches of cards under Ferenginar by throwing engagements is now a legitimate strategy. It was way harder before that to get lots cards under there, making it easier to keep track of.
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By T-Ricks (Rick Kinney)
 - Ambassador
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#575654
abargar7510 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:20 pm
T-Ricks wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:16 pm Currently, you can't examine your draw deck prior to deciding if you want to make a download. Shouldn't that same thought process apply to cards under Ferenginar?

Obviously, if a card specifically tells you to get/exchange a card from beneath Ferenginar, then you would look, but otherwise, why should you be allowed to freely examine these cards? Isn't part of the strategy of using Ferenginar keeping track of what's under it?
I would say that's OBE now that putting bunches of cards under Ferenginar by throwing engagements is now a legitimate strategy. It was way harder before that to get lots cards under there, making it easier to keep track of.
OR, since it much easier to get lots of cards under Ferenginar now, perhaps not being allowed to freely examine those cards can offset an abusive, NPE for the opposing player?
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#575660
T-Ricks wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:48 pm
abargar7510 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:20 pm
T-Ricks wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:16 pm Currently, you can't examine your draw deck prior to deciding if you want to make a download. Shouldn't that same thought process apply to cards under Ferenginar?

Obviously, if a card specifically tells you to get/exchange a card from beneath Ferenginar, then you would look, but otherwise, why should you be allowed to freely examine these cards? Isn't part of the strategy of using Ferenginar keeping track of what's under it?

I would say that's OBE now that putting bunches of cards under Ferenginar by throwing engagements is now a legitimate strategy. It was way harder before that to get lots cards under there, making it easier to keep track of.
OR, since it much easier to get lots of cards under Ferenginar now, perhaps not being allowed to freely examine those cards can offset an abusive, NPE for the opposing player?
I've seen no evidence that that strategy is abusive or NPE. In fact the comments I'd seen around it talked about how difficult it was to get it to set up and run in any kind of consistent and effective manner. If your opponent is running a different quadrant or low attribute ships it gets even tougher.

In any event, with the conceptual idea of Fereginar as a "bank" of sorts, not being able to look under it make little sense in my opinion. No one would like to have no access to their account balance after making a deposit.

TL;DR this needs a ruling either way.
Last edited by abargar7510 on Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#575667
I've split this discussion from the stickied Rules Questions thread. It's a good topic and needs discussion and resolution, but that thread isn't the proper venue for it.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#575844
edgeofhearing wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:36 pm Drunk with power, I have made my first addition to the Rules Tool: "Cards under your Ferenginar are freely available information to you. You may examine those cards at any time. Your opponent may not."
:thumbsup:
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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2E British National Runner-Up 2021
#575847
What's power for if not to be wielded drunkenly?

Good call :thumbsup:
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