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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#577797
Question from last weekend's tournament:

My opponent has Valkris in play.
I play Where She Belongs at full cost. I proceed to "download and play" Experienced McCoy (at cost -4) and then play another guy at cost -3.

Here's the question: how does Valkris interact with a compound action that includes a download? In this example, if I choose not to give the draws, would McCoy go to the top of my deck and then into play from there? Or since the deck isn't a valid place to play a card from, do I just lose the discount from the Enterprise and I have to draw and play McCoy?

In the end I just gave the guy the two draws because I didn't want to fuck around with any wonkiness, but the answer wasn't clear so I thought I would post it here and see what was what.

Thanks!
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#577802
Rules tip wrote:When multiple cards instruct a player to place a downloaded card somewhere other than in hand (i.e. at a mission, on top of deck), these will resolve in the normal order of response actions. Moving the card to a location other than hand will not affect its final destination. Example: A player downloads a ship per the text of Commandeer Prototype. His opponent has Bo'rak, Klingon Intelligence Agent in play. In this case, the card will go to the top of that player's deck and then into play at Commandeer Prototype.
So you could choose to have McCoy go to the top of the deck and then get played.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#577803
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:45 am
Rules tip wrote:When multiple cards instruct a player to place a downloaded card somewhere other than in hand (i.e. at a mission, on top of deck), these will resolve in the normal order of response actions. Moving the card to a location other than hand will not affect its final destination. Example: A player downloads a ship per the text of Commandeer Prototype. His opponent has Bo'rak, Klingon Intelligence Agent in play. In this case, the card will go to the top of that player's deck and then into play at Commandeer Prototype.
So you could choose to have McCoy go to the top of the deck and then get played.
That's what I thought at first, but that addresses "place" and not "play" so I'm not sure it's directly applicable.

K'mtar would be another example of this use case. The issue is there's nothing that says you can play a card from anywhere besides your hand.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#577815
I think allowing a card to play from anywhere but your hand would open up a giant can of worms.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#577818
monty42 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 pm fwiw there are already some precedents for playing cards from places that aren't your hand.
Yeah the key phrase there is "as if they were in your hand"

... which may answer the initial question. The rule book explicitly says you play cards from your hand. Therefore, if a "download and play" card without such "as if it/ they were in your hand" language lands somewhere other than your hand, you can't play it and things fizzle under the "do as much as you can" rule. Does that sound correct to anybody else?

... which makes me really glad a I gave up the two draws, as it would have cost me 8 counters worth of stuff had I not done so! :shock:
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#577820
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:34 pm
monty42 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 pm fwiw there are already some precedents for playing cards from places that aren't your hand.
Yeah the key phrase there is "as if they were in your hand"

... which may answer the initial question. The rule book explicitly says you play cards from your hand. Therefore, if a "download and play" card without such "as if it/ they were in your hand" language lands somewhere other than your hand, you can't play it and things fizzle under the "do as much as you can" rule. Does that sound correct to anybody else?

... which makes me really glad a I gave up the two draws, as it would have cost me 8 counters worth of stuff had I not done so! :shock:
That sounds most intuitively correct to me
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#577821
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:34 pm Yeah the key phrase there is "as if they were in your hand"
There are other cards which you can play from alternate locations which do not say "as if ... in hand." Errol can be played from the discard pile, as can Daniels. Lustful Distraction can play from Watch Dog. I'm sure there are a few other examples which aren't immediately springing to my mind.

I would say it's a case of the card telling you that you can do something you can't normally do. Where She Belongs tells you that you can play the personnel you downloaded, so you can, even if that personnel isn't in your hand by the time you go to play them. But I do think it's a murky enough situation that Rules could go either way.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#577823
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:55 pm
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:34 pm Yeah the key phrase there is "as if they were in your hand"
There are other cards which you can play from alternate locations which do not say "as if ... in hand." Errol can be played from the discard pile, as can Daniels. Lustful Distraction can play from Watch Dog. I'm sure there are a few other examples which aren't immediately springing to my mind.

I would say it's a case of the card telling you that you can do something you can't normally do. Where She Belongs tells you that you can play the personnel you downloaded, so you can, even if that personnel isn't in your hand by the time you go to play them. But I do think it's a murky enough situation that Rules could go either way.
Counterpoint: all of the examples you cite carry "you may play from [zone]" text, which is a card- specific exception to a rulebook rule. Where She Belongs has no such text, it just allows you to play the card you just downloaded at a discount (ditto K'mtar).

I would think if the intent was to create an exception case, the text would more explicitly do so, would it not?

I agree that Rules should probably weigh in. Who's wearing that hat these days? @edgeofhearing ?
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By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
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#577860
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:07 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:55 pm
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:34 pm Yeah the key phrase there is "as if they were in your hand"
There are other cards which you can play from alternate locations which do not say "as if ... in hand." Errol can be played from the discard pile, as can Daniels. Lustful Distraction can play from Watch Dog. I'm sure there are a few other examples which aren't immediately springing to my mind.

I would say it's a case of the card telling you that you can do something you can't normally do. Where She Belongs tells you that you can play the personnel you downloaded, so you can, even if that personnel isn't in your hand by the time you go to play them. But I do think it's a murky enough situation that Rules could go either way.
Counterpoint: all of the examples you cite carry "you may play from [zone]" text, which is a card- specific exception to a rulebook rule. Where She Belongs has no such text, it just allows you to play the card you just downloaded at a discount (ditto K'mtar).

I would think if the intent was to create an exception case, the text would more explicitly do so, would it not?

I agree that Rules should probably weigh in. Who's wearing that hat these days? @edgeofhearing ?
The last time we got a ruling on K'mtar vs Klingon Tea Ceremony, the short-lived anonymous 2E Rules Liaison said that K'mtar can't play cards that aren't in hand. While I do not endorse vehemently denounce other things they said in that thread, I do think that ruling can be applied in the situation of Valkris v. Enterprise; if you don't pay Valkris, you can't play the card you downloaded with the Enterprise.

That said, this particular ruling has never seemed particularly intuitive given the number of times this question has come up. I'm sympathetic to the argument that K'mtar/Enterprise give you permission to play the card from the top of your deck; since the counter-argument is that other cards are worded differently, I do think there's some ruling-wiggle-room.

Then again, the current ruling (which, to be clear, I am not overturning here, but I will read and consider any argumentation) does give anti-download cards more teeth versus the most powerful download cards, which is probably better for the game.

Either way, this ruling should probably go in the Rules Tool, so I can stop linking to that cursed thread.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#577862
Not saying how it does work, but how I wish it did work:

My preferred interpretation of cards like this would be that Where She Belongs is a complete action. You download and play the personnel. Valkris triggers, but because the personnel is in play you must choose the draw 3 cards.

(Because logically, the download action must resolve, or the card wouldn't be in the hand to begin with. In this case, the download action includes playing it.)

If Where She Belongs said something closer to "you may download a personnel. You may play them this turn aboard the ship at cost -4", that would be different. That would be two actions that could each be responded to, not one action with two sub-parts.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#577863
edgeofhearing wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:13 am
Armus wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:07 pm
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:55 pm

There are other cards which you can play from alternate locations which do not say "as if ... in hand." Errol can be played from the discard pile, as can Daniels. Lustful Distraction can play from Watch Dog. I'm sure there are a few other examples which aren't immediately springing to my mind.

I would say it's a case of the card telling you that you can do something you can't normally do. Where She Belongs tells you that you can play the personnel you downloaded, so you can, even if that personnel isn't in your hand by the time you go to play them. But I do think it's a murky enough situation that Rules could go either way.
Counterpoint: all of the examples you cite carry "you may play from [zone]" text, which is a card- specific exception to a rulebook rule. Where She Belongs has no such text, it just allows you to play the card you just downloaded at a discount (ditto K'mtar).

I would think if the intent was to create an exception case, the text would more explicitly do so, would it not?

I agree that Rules should probably weigh in. Who's wearing that hat these days? @edgeofhearing ?
The last time we got a ruling on K'mtar vs Klingon Tea Ceremony, the short-lived anonymous 2E Rules Liaison said that K'mtar can't play cards that aren't in hand. While I do not endorse vehemently denounce other things they said in that thread, I do think that ruling can be applied in the situation of Valkris v. Enterprise; if you don't pay Valkris, you can't play the card you downloaded with the Enterprise.

That said, this particular ruling has never seemed particularly intuitive given the number of times this question has come up. I'm sympathetic to the argument that K'mtar/Enterprise give you permission to play the card from the top of your deck; since the counter-argument is that other cards are worded differently, I do think there's some ruling-wiggle-room.

Then again, the current ruling (which, to be clear, I am not overturning here, but I will read and consider any argumentation) does give anti-download cards more teeth versus the most powerful download cards, which is probably better for the game.

Either way, this ruling should probably go in the Rules Tool, so I can stop linking to that cursed thread.
Thanks, Lucas. That was a lot to dig through, but I think this is the relevant nugget:
Cards can affect other cards across zones. Meaning, even when it went from play to the dc pile it could affect it. However, "playing a card" can only come from your hand, as that is the definition of playing a card UNLESS the card allowing the play is specifically saying where you could play it from...which alexander does not. The example here is Learning Curve, it specifically says you can play cards off it.
Given the rulebook specifically says Play = From Hand, and other cards specifically say Play... As If From Hand, this actually makes sense to me. I'm not sure changing it is the best idea.
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