Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
#581856
I didn't care about Khan before, but I do like the thought of trying 4 planets now that it's a reasonable point goal.

I do want to try the new 20 and 40 point borg missions to see if they'll fit in my no-assimilation deck.

I do want to try the thief android in GC's thief deck that I've been trying.

Rishon is going in a bunch of my decks.

Porthos seems fun.

Why don't you tell us what you would have wanted instead?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#581859
bosskamiura wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:51 pm I feel like this thread is going to be locked soon.

TK
I hope not. It would give @StateofSTCCG an excuse to not produce the answers that have been requested of them.

I really want to see what they've got that's so much better than both Standard and HoF AND these fancy new cards that they keep touting as better than what the CC has produced.

And I really hope you come through on that, @StateofSTCCG. Say what you will about the CC, but at least they're producing content and making it publicly available to be scrutinized.

Like I said before, I have plenty of my own beefs with the current 2E CC leadership and Design processes. The current de facto 2e nerd boss, @The Guardian isn't even able to bring himself to acknowledge my existence after canceling me last year, so it's not like I enjoy leaping to their defense.

But despite what @The Guardian or @edgeofhearing or anyone else still on the inside thinks of me, I've always tried to be fair in my assessments, and right now they're producing stuff and you're not.

I stayed on to run the HoF process as a member of the community because I care about the game too. Say what you will about Hall of Fame, but if anything it's a card pool with more community backing than any other because it's the only card pool that changes due to the community (or at least 65% of the community) wanting that change. You got something better? Great. Let's see it.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
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2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#581861
bosskamiura wrote:I feel like this thread is going to be locked soon.

TK
I haven't seen anything here, besides *possibly* the post where @StateofSTCCG was yelling, that trips Wheaton's Law, so I think it will be safe.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#581862
@Global moderators absent anything super-egregious developing (and just so we're clear nothing to this point qualifies as anything close to that IMO) please don't lock this thread. I think there needs to be some clearing of the air and this is as good a place as any to do it.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#581868
I enjoyed the new set. Once I am back in a financial place to print cards again, I have 3 decks I want to print. It's cool, because I was working on a Cardassian dissident deck when this set started releasing and now I can make it work better!
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By Gorgo Primus (Benjamin Rostoker)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#581880
Armus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:47 pm
jadziadax8 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:46 pm I'm laughing at this title because this set is literally cards that players wanted, since every card idea was sourced from a player who is not in Design.
Don't oversell it, Maggie. I'm not sure what actually came out is what the players in question actually wanted.
I mean, pretty much every card in the final set is from someone (I think from this thread alone people should have some idea as to why we aren’t outing what came from whom without their consent) who wasn’t in Design at the time of submission, and within the fairly heavy constraints given we did our collective best to make sure what came out was as close to the original as they could reasonably be while being balanced, functional, taken through playtesting, etc. It is certainly possible that amongst those that changed the most some submitter isn’t fully satisfied, but I think most would be pleased that what they submitted came out nearly identical or at the very least very similar to what they sent in to become an official card in the set. Certainly several submitters were called up at various points during the process to double check with them that they were alright with what was going on to ensure that was the case, so it isn’t like we never had any idea what they were going for with their submission and none of them knew about what was happening either.

Still this was a really hard project to work on in a lot of ways given it’s nature and was the first set of its kind, so it isn’t outside of realm of possibility that something slipped through on that front and went awry. I can’t really think of any potential candidates for such a thing right now, but if any of the final cards ended up coming out in a way that totally missed the point of what they wanted/intended or feels like a totally different card then they submitted I can only apologize to them and ask for their forgiveness. Every reasonable effort available to us was used to try to make sure that didn’t happen though.



To those saying nobody wanted these and blaming everyone in Design that the cards in set were even attempted, I’d say that seems really misguided of those who choose to do so though. As I said, these were indeed community sourced cards from any player who saw the announcements/requests and wanted to submit something (personally I wish the submission announcements were more frequently done so it’d be more likely for players to see them, but they were publicly made and a lot of players evidently did see them cause they submitted things). A fair number of these cards, for better or worse, would probably never have been pitched by someone on this set’s team and yet now they’re here for anyone to use in a tournament. That’s pretty significant imo, and makes the charge that ‘nobody wanted these cards other than the CC’ quite bizarre to me. To a large extent you’d have to blame your fellow players if you think nothing in his set should have ever been made under any circumstances, but I’d honestly be shocked if you honestly did given the variety of things here and the way that some of these cover long standing community hobby horses.

It’s fine to dislike this set or things in it, it’s fine to dislike the way the set was produced, etc. But the OP seems way too extreme and unwarranted in terms of the hows and whys of what it’s saying (though to be clear, that isn’t me saying it should be locked or anything like that). So feel free to hate the set and not want to play with any of it, but clearly at least one person (the submitter) did want it made and I’d wager they usually weren’t alone given some of the responses on the forums.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#581882
All I can add to this is that of the cards I submitted, four made it into the set. Those four cards received minimal to no changes from the design team thus are the cards I wanted in the game.
To top of that I might add that the changes that were made have nothing but my approval because they enhance the gameplay value over my original idea.
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By TyKajada (Alexander Schmitz)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#581886
.

I can say that three of my submissions made it in. They received changes but all of them were discussed and reasoned for with good communication. The cards are still true to the original intent.
All in all a great idea to have a community set and a wonderful opportunity and experience to contribute with my own ideas. Fun stuff!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Hint: I would do this more often. :cheersL:

As for 4 planet Khan stuff. I welcome the changes and additional cards, these actually make me want to try 4 planet Khan. The clunky feeling this deck type had before seems to be gone...
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#581919
As someone that enjoys the Khan BS I am liking this new set as well. I also like the android BS. I do not see why we have all the negativity every time there are new cards produced and released. In fairness, the last two years of cards have been some of the best in my opinion. Have there been some cards that I did not get or understand, yes. Have there been some that were broken or were found that could be broken, yes. Does that mean that people did not do their best in a voluntary situation to continue this game (1E and 2E) that could have died when Decipher tanked, no. There have been many mistake made along the way. But it appears that this group has continued to try to move the game forward. If we all could find a footing within the game from which to try and help think where we would be and where we could go! I have not been happy with everything that has ever been produced but I still play what I enjoy and try and help make it better the next time. Come join in the adventure! :cheersL:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#581921
durgforaday wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:25 am As someone that enjoys the Khan BS I am liking this new set as well. I also like the android BS. I do not see why we have all the negativity every time there are new cards produced and released. In fairness, the last two years of cards have been some of the best in my opinion. Have there been some cards that I did not get or understand, yes. Have there been some that were broken or were found that could be broken, yes. Does that mean that people did not do their best in a voluntary situation to continue this game (1E and 2E) that could have died when Decipher tanked, no. There have been many mistake made along the way. But it appears that this group has continued to try to move the game forward. If we all could find a footing within the game from which to try and help think where we would be and where we could go! I have not been happy with everything that has ever been produced but I still play what I enjoy and try and help make it better the next time. Come join in the adventure! :cheersL:
I'd love to agree with this post, I really would.

But when people who try to volunteer and contribute are told they're no longer wanted or needed by those ostensibly in charge, and petty nerd politics gets in the way of building the game, it's really hard to "think where we would be and where we could go" - if anything it's "think where we could've gone"

The silencing of dissenting voices has created an echo chamber environment, and some of the biggest contributors have been run off. Hard to say "yay team, let's go!" in the face of that.
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#581942
I do not disagree. My point is to the work that has been put in and turned out. You are absolutely correct about the petty politics and I am not even on the “in”. Where we could’ve been is a very valid response. But I do not see the good in negativity towards the game, the cards. Bash people all you want. If they can not take it they will get out OR if it is unwarranted they will give it back to you. Just do not shovel schlock on the game because you can. There is nothing wrong with this set of cards. One may argue that there is nothing right about them. That should and could lead to healthy discussion and debate about future cards, but to stand high on that mountain and shout that this set or that set is shite when it clearly is not serves no purpose but to be negative. I do not see it’s usefulness. :cheersL:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#581948
durgforaday wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:16 pm I do not disagree. My point is to the work that has been put in and turned out. You are absolutely correct about the petty politics and I am not even on the “in”. Where we could’ve been is a very valid response. But I do not see the good in negativity towards the game, the cards. Bash people all you want. If they can not take it they will get out OR if it is unwarranted they will give it back to you. Just do not shovel schlock on the game because you can. There is nothing wrong with this set of cards. One may argue that there is nothing right about them. That should and could lead to healthy discussion and debate about future cards, but to stand high on that mountain and shout that this set or that set is shite when it clearly is not serves no purpose but to be negative. I do not see it’s usefulness. :cheersL:
Yeah I haven't actually stated my opinion on this set yet, and that's an intentional choice.

Look back through the last 15 years and you'll see plenty of new cards takes (both good AND bad) that turned out to be completely WRONG.

From what I see *right now* before any of these cards have been played, by gut tells me that this set is a net plus for Android decks. Stella! has my early vote for best card in the set.

I think a few of the Bajoran cards could be good, but also problematic. Sisko and Odo are both on my Radar, for different reasons.

Barge of the Dead is a classic case of making a good deck better. I'm sure it'll get played but it's not like Treachery Klingons needed the help.

On the other side of the coin, I'm not sold on [Car] Dissidents and Khan. At all. But I'm willing to be convinced.

The one thing I will say is (at the risk of pissing off @nickyank ), I actually really like the change to Ceti Alpha V. That text should always have been on the mission and not some random personnel who could get killed/captured/discarded/etc. and effectively end the game right then and there. I like risk/benefit tradeoffs, but Joaquin was too much risk and not enough benefit.

We'll see how all of these takes age, but the one thing I ask of and expect from Design is DON'T BREAK THE GAME. They couldn't live up to that simple expectation last year, which is why they've lost the benefit of the doubt from me.

I don't *think* this set does that, but like I said, there's a few things that bear watching. Time will tell...
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#581951
I agree with your assessment of this set. It is fair. I am glad for the Khan and android love because I enjoy playing those factions. Stella is probably best card, agreed. I did not see the rationale in the [Car] diss but I will test drive it to see if it is fun to play, because it is a game. I, as you, do not want this game broken and there have been misses. I think when someone gets the opportunity to “ design” something new the tendency is “ hold my beer”! That has definitely happened. HOF has been a great way to police the game when it was unable or unwilling to be fixed. Why anyone would have a problem with that format is beyond me but I would be open to discuss it. All that said, let us not hate the cardboard! If we have thoughts let us share without being obtusely negative. Working on cards for cards sake has to be better for the game than bashing someone because they had a bad idea but had the wishing stone so it was their turn to create. Love the game not the people is all I am saying! :D :cheersL:
#582099
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm
Armus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:47 pm
jadziadax8 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:46 pm I'm laughing at this title because this set is literally cards that players wanted, since every card idea was sourced from a player who is not in Design.
Don't oversell it, Maggie. I'm not sure what actually came out is what the players in question actually wanted.
How true. But more later. At first I will repeat some of Alexander Schmitz's words: I can say that some of my submissions made it in. They received changes but all of them were discussed and reasoned for with good communication (at first). All in all a great idea to have a community set and a wonderful opportunity and experience to contribute with my own ideas. Fun stuff! (If only it had kept what it promised)

While one of my cards came out almost identical than submitted, one was slighly changed and two were merged together to one. That's the good stuff. But...
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm I mean, pretty much every card in the final set is from someone (I think from this thread alone people should have some idea as to why we aren’t outing what came from whom without their consent) who wasn’t in Design at the time of submission, and within the fairly heavy constraints given we did our collective best to make sure what came out was as close to the original as they could reasonably be while being balanced, functional, taken through playtesting, etc.
What was left from my 5 submitted Dissidents is 1 Name (Vornar) and the Keyword Dissident. That's it. I do not know if someone else submitted Dissidents but as far as I can trace it back they were all Richard News cards. So far so bad. 6 cards not submitted by the community.
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm It is certainly possible that amongst those that changed the most some submitter isn’t fully satisfied, but I think most would be pleased that what they submitted came out nearly identical or at the very least very similar to what they sent in to become an official card in the set.
Yes to the 3 first mentioned cards. NO to the rest.
The new Dissidents have nothing to do with my Dissidents.
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm Certainly several submitters were called up at various points during the process to double check with them that they were alright with what was going on to ensure that was the case, so it isn’t like we never had any idea what they were going for with their submission and none of them knew about what was happening either.
Yes. I was called. I was invited to an online meeting. I was allowed to communicate with the creator.
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm Still this was a really hard project to work on in a lot of ways given it’s nature and was the first set of its kind, so it isn’t outside of realm of possibility that something slipped through on that front and went awry. I can’t really think of any potential candidates for such a thing right now, but if any of the final cards ended up coming out in a way that totally missed the point of what they wanted/intended or feels like a totally different card then they submitted I can only apologize to them and ask for their forgiveness. Every reasonable effort available to us was used to try to make sure that didn’t happen though.
Here I have to disagree. Think about ME!
When I heard from the community set I put together all I had and sent it to Tjark. Garak was one of it. My original Garak also downloaded For Cardassia!, a card, that did not exist at the time when I first made Garak. For Tjark I renamed it to Standing together and now it exists as Undaunted but my Garak was cut... Tjark wanted more cards, because he liked the dissident idea, so I created more. I have sent in 10 or more Dissident cards. Knowing that they may become changes. Some were changed and it was okay for me.
But the Dissidents they served us now were NOT what I wanted. Never. Not even remotely. They (presumably Richard) just took the idea of Cardassian dissidents and have brewed their (his) own thing.
In development, March 2021, I was disappointed when I heard that dissidents should play with For Cardassia!, Niala and other unused old crap from the Far Beyond the Stars. Dung is dung, even when you spray it golden. I told them my concerans at the one and other point of the development.
One response was "So, where we (mostly I) bumped against your suggestions was the scope and focus on the Cardassians we already have. In this instance, Far Beyond the Stars is our “seed.” It tried to tie Cardassian Dissidents together with the 1-cost, 30-point trigger from For Cardassia."

And after realizing that there is no point in discussing any further, I gave up. And after the fail with the May 2021 Erratas I told Tjark, that the Dissidents in development have nothing to do with my ideas, so I left that project.

As far as I know the dissidents are completely a DESIGN TEAM THING.

The future will tell if the new dissidents will be played as intended but I cannot imagine that the new Cardassia prime being seen much in game.
Gorgo Primus wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:11 pm To those saying nobody wanted these and blaming everyone in Design that the cards in set were even attempted, I’d say that seems really misguided of those who choose to do so though. As I said, these were indeed community sourced cards from any player who saw the announcements/requests and wanted to submit something (personally I wish the submission announcements were more frequently done so it’d be more likely for players to see them, but they were publicly made and a lot of players evidently did see them cause they submitted things). A fair number of these cards, for better or worse, would probably never have been pitched by someone on this set’s team and yet now they’re here for anyone to use in a tournament. That’s pretty significant imo, and makes the charge that ‘nobody wanted these cards other than the CC’ quite bizarre to me. To a large extent you’d have to blame your fellow players if you think nothing in his set should have ever been made under any circumstances, but I’d honestly be shocked if you honestly did given the variety of things here and the way that some of these cover long standing community hobby horses.

It’s fine to dislike this set or things in it, it’s fine to dislike the way the set was produced, etc. But the OP seems way too extreme and unwarranted in terms of the hows and whys of what it’s saying (though to be clear, that isn’t me saying it should be locked or anything like that). So feel free to hate the set and not want to play with any of it, but clearly at least one person (the submitter) did want it made and I’d wager they usually weren’t alone given some of the responses on the forums.
When I apply this two paragraphs to my dissidents, it comes across as more than cynical.
Now, what I wanted has become to what I absolutely DID NOT want. I wish I hadn't sent in anything from the Dissidents. Now the ship is sailed and I will never get a high integrity Dissident Garak, or a good unique Vornar. The only card that possibly may find a way into my existing high Integrity [Car] deck will be Brun -> Archaeo and Transporters on a Gul is nice, but unfortunately NOT MY IDEA!
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