Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#597378
Yes, Temptation + Overwhelmed will result in three personnel being stopped, either because they don’t have Honor or Treachery or because they use Honor or Treachery. It’s not bad, but at a combined cost of 7 and needing to draw both dilemmas in the same draw, there’s usually better options.
eberlems wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:28 pm
Code: Select all
[card]Temptation[/card]
and if you want a specific card
Code: Select all
[card=3147]Overwhelmed[/card]
To add to this, the way you find the number associated with each card is based on the url. So Temptation would be 500 and Overwhelmed would be 804. And if you want 1E cards the tag becomes “card1” instead of “card.”
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#597379
This was a real solid combo in 2003 against attempts of 7 or 8 people. It got even better in 2004/2005 when the Overwhelmed/8 point piles were at their peak.

It's still useable today, but like Nathan said, there's probably better options. Too much non-skill P&O makes Overwhelmed a dicier proposition than it used to be.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#597380
doctorjoya wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:22 pm And btw how do you link words in this forum?
When you write something you will see a greyed line of Symbols right over your text field.
"B" for bold text a.s.o. And to the right is a 2E button/field.
Mark your Cardname with your mouse and then klick the button/field. This action will automatically link the Text for you. But be sure, your Cardname is written correct.
Last edited by Enabran on Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#597384
I always assumed that combo was why there are no other dilemmas like Temptation.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#597386
jadziadax8 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 8:12 pm I always assumed that combo was why there are no other dilemmas like Temptation.
That's a bad reason to not design more Temptation-esque dilemmas. It's fairly costed with or without Overwhelmed.
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By Neelix (Scott Baughman)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
  Trek Masters 2E Champion 2024
#598097
This used to be a bomb combo...back when dilemma "combos" were more important. Nowadays it seems people just want one dilemma to do amazingly well all by itself.

I think it would be better for the overall health of the game if we leaned back on Dilemma combos some more. I think some kind of "helper" card for Overwhelmed has been necessary for quite some time. I'd love to see something like a version of Sisko that functions with Overwhelmed the way that Kodos the Executioner does with The Conscience of the King!
Second Edition Balance Manager
 - Second Edition Balance Manager
 -  
  Trek Masters  Participant 2024
#598125
Would love to see Overwhelmed get some non-dilemma help! Also, a new dilemma like Temptation but with a different set of skills that match up like Honor and Treachery would be another nice partner to Overwhelmed! :twocents: :cheersL:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#598126
Yeah... more 3 cost [D] or 2 cost [S] or [P] with "Randomly select 3 personnel, each one without (or WITH!) [Skill A] or [Skill B] is stopped." text could be real interesting. They count as Skill dilemmas for things like Legacy and Overburdened, play nicely with Overwhelmed, and depending on the specific skills involved, could enable some interesting combos.

Definitely food for Design thought...
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#599230
durgforaday wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:00 pm Would love to see Overwhelmed get some non-dilemma help! Also, a new dilemma like Temptation but with a different set of skills that match up like Honor and Treachery would be another nice partner to Overwhelmed! :twocents: :cheersL:
I've wanted a version of Temptation with different skills for a very long time. Before I was even on design, it was a fun puzzle to try to theory-craft what a good pair of skills would be for such a card.

The problem is the math is hard when the data is unavailable. The math is pretty easy for Honor + Treachery, because we know only one personnel has both, we know that both skills are common ones, and we know that generally decks tend to be pretty good at at least one skill or the other. Those aren't assumptions we can make about other skills, and the last time I tried to get some data to poke at those assumptions, the card search engine had a limit to how many results it returns.

...but, while considering this thread for the past few weeks, it occurred to me that that limitation has been removed and I can go to town on data. So I did!

Here's Table 1:
Image
In this table, we see the 11 most common skills (each skill that is on >300 personnel in the game; total count of the personnel with that skill is above/to the left of the skill name), and each intersection we see the total overlap (the number of personnel who have both of those skills). So, for example, sure Leadership and Officer are both common skills (even more common that Treachery and Honor), but their overlap is really big. I mean, I didn't need the data to tell me that... honestly I expected the overlap to be larger.

Anyways, this table is nice, but it doesn't tell me the total pool - sure, an overlap may be large, but if the skills are more common, they might still have decent reach, right?

So here's Table 2:
Image
In this table, I added the prevalence of each skill, and subtracted the overlap (so that personnel with both skills aren't counted twice. We can see here that no two skills have quite the same reach as Honor + Treachery, but some are close (like Leadership + Programming).

That's not to say that Leadership + Programming is necessarily the best, but the table gives us a good place to start. It doesn't take into account that some personnel are more popular than others, and there are reasons to include (or even not include) some skills. I do think that Temptation actually improved as a dilemma during the height of An Issue of Trust's reign of terror - I know there was certainly a while where every MVB pile used three of each. Now that AIoT's use has declined, Temptation probably isn't quite as good.

Similarly, would a Temptation-esque dilemma that promotes Leadership see a rise in the use of Personal Duty? If it used Engineer, would Coolant Leak have a renaissance? Would it even move the needle that much? After all, Temptation itself is not exactly on fire, it's just a solid dilemma.

Another option that these tables don't account for is the possibility of using three skills (and dipping into the rarer skills) rather than just two. The math there is harder since there are wAAaaaAAAAaay more permutations of three skills rather than just two, so I think, short of someone writing a script to harvest the data, it's easier just to look at specific three-skill combinations. Like, Security and Engineer have a pretty decent depth, but non-Klingon Integrity decks tend to be weak on both - so what if we added a rare third skill like Law?

Anyways, that's probably more of a look into my thinking than anyone was asking for, but I've already spent the time writing it all, so I'm just going to hit submit anyways.
Second Edition Balance Manager
 - Second Edition Balance Manager
 -  
  Trek Masters  Participant 2024
#599245
Lucas that is really awesome!! What a great dive in to the numbers! I was willing/hoping to just start a conversation about the creation of a dilemma similar to Temptation that would partner with Overwhelmed and you have math to help make good choices! DESIGN: please do not let this work go unrewarded!!! Let us come up with a good new dilemma that makes us all proud! Thank you Lucas! :cheersL:
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