Home of the third annual You Make The Card contest, where the community designs a card for an upcoming Virtual Expansion!
Second Edition Creative Manager
By Triumph (Jonathan)
 - Second Edition Creative Manager
 -  
Adventurer
#133078
Okay, so, first, it looks like "Hard Bargain" will be the name of Mudd's ship, at least in 2E. HUZZAH! My suggestion won! :D :thumbsup:

Okay, moving on...

So, the mass stop prevention route didn't work so well.

While it might be possible to rehabilitate that idea, I'd rather go some other direction. Either he can still help all smugglers and thieves, but does something different, or Mudd should have a more individual effect. I understand the desire to use him as a tool to make a smuggler / thief deck, but I really don't think Mudd of all people is a criminal ringleader. He's much too selfish. He's much more likely to sacrifice others (e.g. the eponymous Mudd's Women) to keep himself out of trouble than he is to sacrifice himself to save a crowd of his competitors (other smugglers and thieves).

When this personnel is about to be stopped, captured, or placed on an opponent's card, discard a Crime card from hand or stop your Smuggler present to prevent that.

Something like that (not wedded to that arrangement) feels more Mudd-y to me. If we do want to present Mudd as the leader of a group of miscreants (as he sort of was in Mudd's Women), maybe he could give fellow smugglers a cunning boost? He's constantly scheming and trying to manipulate others, so may "While this personnel is attempting a mission, stop him to make your Smugglers at this mission each Cunning +1 until end of turn." Or something.

I know way back in the day there were some interesting ideas about "selling" something to an opponent to get a bonus. Maybe something could be done there.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#133084
Since I was one of those who came up with that idea for Mudd in the first place, I'm sad to see it didn't work out. I rather see a somewhat useful version of him, then a broken one though. :cross:

I don't think giving smugglers +1 cunning is the right way to go. The thief/smuggler-decks already has insanely high cunning.
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By ZodoJats
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#133087
I'm surprised he was considered much more powerful than Kirk given that every 'target' dilemma like SI/CG or just stop dilemmas work well against him. Secret Identity/Seen and the Unseen would have been a pretty harsh thing to deal with. His power probably increased given the change in dilemma piles with the current meta though, so it's understandable. He isn't great against Hard Time/Polywater, but that's not what's floating around much anymore. Really I don't think it would have been Harry that made the deck unstoppable (if it really was), but more so the combination of Harry with the Orion chicks.

As for the current version: well he's kinda broken at the moment without 'present' being in there. Otherwise leave him at your HQ and nothing they can do about him. Once that's in there though, he's pretty powerful still but I don't think very fun to play or play against. Chuckles are ridiculously good, the only thing keeping them down is the Voyager disadvantage against interaction. Take that away with playing MotW and it's easy to imagine six-person Thief/Smuggler crews barreling through missions with little your opponent can do to stop them.
Seen and the Unseen will ultimately mean that all-NA won't be tier one. But you don't want it to be the case where Smuggler/Thief wins if they don't use an anti-NA dilemma, and lose if they do.

Everything can be moderated by cost. I like the idea of the first version the best, but it's power is clear. I think the best way to keep him similar to the community's original vote is to incorporate a point-cost. Lose 5 points, lose 10 points, or even make your opponent score 20 points if you use him. 2-cost, remove from the game and lose 10 points when you use him for instance might work well.
Second Edition Creative Manager
By Triumph (Jonathan)
 - Second Edition Creative Manager
 -  
Adventurer
#133089
Giving the opponent points to avoid trouble would be very fitting for Mudd's character. I like that idea.
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First Edition Art Manager
By jjh (Johnny Holeva)
 - First Edition Art Manager
 -  
#133091
I don't support anything anymore that avoids/prevents dilemmas.

Enough is enough.

Let's steer this game state back to solving dilemmas, not making them useless.
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By chompers (Steve Hartmann)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
2E Australian Continental Semi-Finalist 2019
#133094
jjh wrote:I don't support anything anymore that avoids/prevents dilemmas.

Enough is enough.

Let's steer this game state back to solving dilemmas, not making them useless.
:thumbsup:

This was the second most voted text:
When your event is destroyed by an opponent's card, you may draw a card (or download a Thief or a Smuggler if the event destroyed was a Crime card).

Seems useful in the world of event destruction ..... (perhaps could even say destroyed or prevented????)
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#133096
chompers wrote:
jjh wrote:I don't support anything anymore that avoids/prevents dilemmas.

Enough is enough.

Let's steer this game state back to solving dilemmas, not making them useless.
:thumbsup:

This was the second most voted text:
When your event is destroyed by an opponent's card, you may draw a card (or download a Thief or a Smuggler if the event destroyed was a Crime card).

Seems useful in the world of event destruction ..... (perhaps could even say destroyed or prevented????)
Funny you should mention that...
[NA] 4 •Hard Bargain (Illegal Enterprise)
[Stf] [Stf]
[Pa] J Class
While your three [NA] Thief personnel are aboard, this ship is attributes +2. When your event is destroyed by a card an opponent owns, you may draw a card (if it was a Crime event, you may also download a [NA] Thief or a [NA] Smuggler.)
[RANGE 6] [WEAPONS 5] [SHIELDS 5]
Of course, that's subject to change.

-crp
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Second Edition Playtest Manager
By Faithful Reader (Ross Fertel)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#133126
It's us versus Harry Mudd, let's kick his [Donkey].

How about adding a 'Once per game' to the origininal iterations? It's still good but not unstoppable.

What I'm missing is why the designers didn't reset after discovering things that don't work. That's one of the basic tenants of the scientific process, isolating the variables. They upped the cost, then tinkered with the gametext without resetting the cost.

ETA: Props to testers for running this on a weekly basis!

Also, I'm not sure I'm happy with the word Enterprise on Hard Bargain.

Faithful Reader
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By chompers (Steve Hartmann)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
2E Australian Continental Semi-Finalist 2019
#133194
ZodoJats wrote:
Faithful Reader wrote:How about adding a 'Once per game' to the origininal iterations? It's still good but not unstoppable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there zero cards in 2E that use 'once per game' as a mechanic? I don't think we should put it in just for the sake of Harry Mudd.
2E removes from game to limit to three uses .. I guess it could be worded something like this to restrict to one use ....

Remove this personnel from the game (and then search deck, discard pile and remove all copies from the game) .. but that is clunky.

Edit ... and Sisko Man of Two Worlds breaks that anyway.
Second Edition Creative Manager
By Triumph (Jonathan)
 - Second Edition Creative Manager
 -  
Adventurer
#133197
Having Harry just cheat through dilemmas doesn't seem to work, at least not without crazy cost machinations. Having him help overcome the proper way tends to be lame because the Orions from WYLB already own the skill-gaining and attribute-boosting department for NA and thieves. Stupid Orions. :thumbsdown: I think Harry will have to go a different direction. He kept causing trouble for the Enterprise crew when he showed up - leading to their lithium crystals blowing out, or contributing their getting captured by androids, or something. Maybe he can be made to do something that messes with one's opponent.

Brainstorming...
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#133199
Whatever the effect of his ability turns out to be, I would be interested in seeing his cost have something to do with giving command of something that you command to your opponent. I originally suggested that he give command of a crime event to an opponent, but it could also work with giving command of a personnel or equipment, or even himself. I think that works well with his identity as a trader.
Second Edition Creative Manager
By Triumph (Jonathan)
 - Second Edition Creative Manager
 -  
Adventurer
#133212
I like the idea of giving command of a personnel to opponent - it fits very well with the story this persona of Mudd represents (from Mudd's Women). Not sure how to implement it though, or what benefit it should grant.

If we take his "trading" quality and make it more abstract, Mudd could give the opponent counters, or points, and reap a benefit in return. The thing is, Guinan essentially already gives the opponent points so that I get points, and Gav gives the opponent points and gains skills, so if Harry gave the opponent points, he would have to do something different. Giving counters, though...at the moment I can't think of stuff that gives an opponent counters. Maybe he says "Your opponent may spend one additional counter each turn," as his drawback (the trade he makes to the opponent) and then can have some other ability that shows how he enriches himself. Of course, that ability wouldn't work with the existing Mudd because he removes himself from play, and it wouldn't work if Mudd got stopped while attempting missions. So "selling counters" wouldn't work as a constant effect on Mudd.
 
By Foreman
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
#133216
Triumph wrote: Maybe he says "Your opponent may spend one additional counter each turn," as his drawback
I realise its still the brainstorming phase, but this would not be a good ability to put on a card that is usually hidden from the opponent.
Second Edition Creative Manager
By Triumph (Jonathan)
 - Second Edition Creative Manager
 -  
Adventurer
#133221
Foreman wrote:
Triumph wrote: Maybe he says "Your opponent may spend one additional counter each turn," as his drawback
I realise its still the brainstorming phase, but this would not be a good ability to put on a card that is usually hidden from the opponent.
+1

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