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By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#486488
This thread is gold.

You brought up an issue.

People are offering helpful possible solutions to said issue.

You are dismissing said possible solutions out of hand and calling them patronizing.

Then you want "real action" or OTF is, apparently, not being taken seriously?

This really isnt the best way to have your voice heard.

Battle Borg isnt even the best they offer. A harness particle deck is, imo, even better. As is an assimilate homeworld.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486489
Out of curiosity, what was your plan against Borg going into the tournament? Borg SFC has always been strong vs. Federation solvers, and for the purposes of this thread I think it'd be helpful to know what you were planning to do in such a matchup, and where this plan failed.

e.g.
-Did you stock anti-Borg tech that didn't help or that you couldn't access in time?
-Did you adapt your seed/play strategy once you realized what Jeremy was doing, but it didn't work? (after the missions came out it should have been clear he was playing Borg)
-Did you plan to turtle somewhere and build up, but he hunted you down?
-Was the plan to simply outrun a Borg opponent?
etc.

Borg battle is strong but I'm not convinced it's broken, rather than just a tournament win by a good player (Jeremy was runner up at Worlds a few years back with another Borg deck) who read the meta well.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#486491
From Jeremy's own report from his game vs. Greg:
I considered battle, but ultimately decided against it since Greg had multiple ships in play in different locations and I couldn't really cut him off moving around the spaceline, or timeline in his case. He was attempting before me, but I got a couple 'kills' with Spatial Rift in his initial attempt and he lost points from Edo Probe.
So even though Jeremy won the game it was hardly a jobber squash. To the contrary, Greg was reasonably well prepared for Borg played accordingly, solving at least one mission in the process.

[22] is a good solver answer to Borg, even moreso when it's not [SF] .

I'd bet dollars to donuts that a pure [Vul] solver could avoid battle long enough to outrun the Borg. Ditto [Rom] - ask Jon Carter how he dealt with Borg with his all-property [Rom] deck.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#486494
Spectre9 wrote:Battle Borg will always be a "great meta read" until everybody is playing it because it's the best deck in the format.

Show me decks that beat Battle Borg. Keep in mind a battle Borg deck can still win in 6 turns even if it doesn't blow you up.
This deck beat battle Borg at NACC, though it only went 2-2 overall. It also really helped that I faced Kris in round one, and had the element of surprise. He wasn't prepared to play around Resistance Tactics and Bajoran Wormhole hopping, but came up with some solutions after our game. I think the biggest problem is that the type of defensive solver that beats battle Borg is going to have a rough time against the speed solvers it faces every other round.

2E has a similar problem right now in that the kind of deck that has a chance against the dominant Cardassian solver also gets punished by the only slightly less dominant Relativity solver that also sees a lot of play. Makes it hard to be at the top table facing the top deck.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#486499
edgeofhearing wrote:I think the biggest problem is that the type of defensive solver that beats battle Borg is going to have a rough time against the speed solvers it faces every other round.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
Battle Borg will always be a "great meta read" until everybody is playing it because it's the best deck in the format.
If this is true, why isn't everybody playing it?

I mostly played Battle Borg as a way to play against Kevin Jaeger without having to actually attempt missions. (Then, like a total fool, I attempted a mission anyway and lost. But the theory was sound!)
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486502
edgeofhearing wrote:
This deck beat battle Borg at NACC, though it only went 2-2 overall. It also really helped that I faced Kris in round one, and had the element of surprise. He wasn't prepared to play around Resistance Tactics and Bajoran Wormhole hopping, but came up with some solutions after our game. I think the biggest problem is that the type of defensive solver that beats battle Borg is going to have a rough time against the speed solvers it faces every other round.
So battle borg is rock, speed solver is scissors, and defensive deck is paper. when everyone plays solver, battle borg dominates. does op just want to play scissors and have rock nerfed? doesnt seem fair.

what needs to happen is more people play battle borg rock. speed solvers will keep getting crushed until battle borg dominate the deck choices. then defensive deck paper will have its day and battle borg rock will be dominated. then when defensive deck paper becomes the number one deck choice, itll be time for speed solver scissors to make a come back.

i dont see the problem.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#486506
Discovery rox wrote:So battle borg is rock, speed solver is scissors, and defensive deck is paper. when everyone plays solver, battle borg dominates.

i dont see the problem.
If there's a problem it's that, in RPS, all options are equally powerful. They have a 100% win rate against the thing they beat and a 0% win rate against the things they lose to.

Obviously, that's not what we want in this game. I'd say that, optimally, each has, say, a 60% win rate against the thing they beat, and a 40% win rate against the things they lose to. You're never 100% out of the game, but you can make smart meta picks and improve your chances of beating what you expect to see.

But that's also what we have in the game either. I'd say what we have is roughly closer to:
Battle Borg 90% vs Speed, 40% vs Defensive
Speed 70% vs Defensive, 10% vs Battle Borg
Defensive 60% vs Battle Borg, 30% vs Speed

And the other end of the problem is that you can't just substitute Battle in place of Battle Borg. Battle Borg is way more effective than any other similar deck (though Kevin's Dominion, in the hands of Kevin specifically is close).

And the third end of the problem is, in RPS, you don't have players whose game playing style makes them naturally gravitate to Rock, Paper, or Scissors.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#486511
Spectre9 wrote:There is no defensive deck.

This is a myth.
He... he... he just linked a defensive deck.

I'm confused!

(Incidentally, another strong response to Battle Borg is just good ol' classic Strategema. That card used to be in a lot of decks, even before Civil War made it an autoinclude. But I haven't seen Strategema in ages.)
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By Spectre9
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486514
BCSWowbagger wrote:
Spectre9 wrote:There is no defensive deck.

This is a myth.
He... he... he just linked a defensive deck.

I'm confused!

(Incidentally, another strong response to Battle Borg is just good ol' classic Strategema. That card used to be in a lot of decks, even before Civil War made it an autoinclude. But I haven't seen Strategema in ages.)
Happy to playtest it with you. It needs to have a favorable match up with battle Borg to hold up this the scissors, paper rock argument.
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#486518
Armus wrote:And Niall made a misplay, but Dominion slice and dice is a great answer to Borg. Can't staff those ships if all of your people are dead.
Thanks for the mention Sykes. I misread a mission span. If I didn't read it wrong, the game would have went VERY differently.

I'll do a more detailed post later as to why Borg ain't all that to a fully prepared player, but I'll mention one thing...

Y'all remember when Hidden Fighter was the hot card to use? :wink:
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486519
edgeofhearing wrote: If there's a problem it's that, in RPS, all options are equally powerful. They have a 100% win rate against the thing they beat and a 0% win rate against the things they lose to.

Obviously, that's not what we want in this game. I'd say that, optimally, each has, say, a 60% win rate against the thing they beat, and a 40% win rate against the things they lose to. You're never 100% out of the game, but you can make smart meta picks and improve your chances of beating what you expect to see.

But that's also what we have in the game either. I'd say what we have is roughly closer to:
Battle Borg 90% vs Speed, 40% vs Defensive
Speed 70% vs Defensive, 10% vs Battle Borg
Defensive 60% vs Battle Borg, 30% vs Speed
the thing is, this doesnt matter. the meta game is a game theory problem. if the problem is a rps-like problem, then the math shakes out to the same result.

your right that in pure rps, one option beats another 100% of the time. but lets call a game rps-like if one option beats a second option more than 50% of the time, the second option beats the third option more than 50% of the time, and the third option beats the first option more than 50% of hte time. you gave numbers that match this, so we are theorizing that star trek ccg meta is a rps-like game. thats an assumption and simplifciation we always make when discussing this problem here, so i dont think its unreasonable.

so in any rps-like game, the math predicts the exact same result i gave you, even if its just rps-like and not pure rps. right now there are too many speed solvers, so battle borg is the most profitable deck choice. smart players will see that meta and will shift to battle borgs. when enough players do so, then players will see that defensive is the smartest deck choice, because there are enough battle borg decks playing to make it worhtwhile. and then teh same thing happens to speed solvers. its a cycle.

in the very long run, you reach nash equilibrium. the numbers of nash equilibrium change depending on the nature of the rps-like game. for teh example numbers you gave me, you get battle borgs 28.6% of the time, speed solvers 14.3% of the time, and defensive decks 57.1% of the time. that means if eveeryone plays game theory optimal strategy in there deck choices, then players will pick one of those decks with that percentage to make, each time they go to a tournament.

(tangent: i actually think having a nash equilibrium where defensive decks make up more then half of the probability is actually optimal for the health and variety of the game. it keeps games the most interesting.)

anyway, i dont think well ever see true nash equilibrium, because we dont play enough games, we dont have enough players, the initial numbers change every time new cards are made, and because players make suboptimal choices all the time. but the math is rock solid, so i dont see the problem in terms of game balance.
And the other end of the problem is that you can't just substitute Battle in place of Battle Borg. Battle Borg is way more effective than any other similar deck (though Kevin's Dominion, in the hands of Kevin specifically is close).
i dont see the issue here. if battle borgs are significantly differnt from other battle decks, then you can gthink of it as rock paper scissors with 4 options. assuming roughly similar math above, you still get meta cycle that shifts through one to another and back again, with a nash equilibrium.

if you are saying that battle borg is strictly superior strategy to non-borg battle, then how is that any different then saying that fed solver is strictly superior strategy to kazon solver? thats a different issue entirely, and not really what op is complaining about, is it? op isnt complaining that battle borg dominates non-borg battle, op is complaining that battle borg dominates non-battle.
And the third end of the problem is, in RPS, you don't have players whose game playing style makes them naturally gravitate to Rock, Paper, or Scissors.
well thats not an issue of game balance. thats an issue of the current meta swinging one way and rather then going with the flow until the meta shifts back there way, they complain about it. players have a choice: they can look at the current meta and make the deck that has the best chance to win, or they can pick a deck they personally like and play it even though they know the current meta is against it.

that will always be the case, no matter what, as long as a meta exists. and as long as any deck doesnt have completely equal chance of beating any other deck, based on deck type, then there will always be a meta. and theres no way to make all deck types completely even and equal in 100% of games, theres just too many variables and cards for that.

(incidentally, if they insist on playing the deck types that are suboptimal for the current meta, the irony si that the meta will shift even slower, or not at all, because there refsual to play other deck types means that the deck types they hate will always stay most profitable to play).
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By Spectre9
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486524
sexecutioner wrote:
Armus wrote:And Niall made a misplay, but Dominion slice and dice is a great answer to Borg. Can't staff those ships if all of your people are dead.
Thanks for the mention Sykes. I misread a mission span. If I didn't read it wrong, the game would have went VERY differently.

I'll do a more detailed post later as to why Borg ain't all that to a fully prepared player, but I'll mention one thing...

Y'all remember when Hidden Fighter was the hot card to use? :wink:
You do realize instantly losing on a single misplay is part of my argument against battle Borg. Having to play perfect to beat it isn't a fair playing field.
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#486525
Spectre9 wrote:You do realize instantly losing on a single misplay is part of my argument against battle Borg. Having to play perfect to beat it isn't a fair playing field.
That's the fault of the player making the misplay. A key misplay can happen even in a solver v solver match.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#486526
Spectre9 wrote:a single misplay
...is what often can win or lose you the game!
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