This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331439
[Tac] Tactic cards are fun, when both player use it.

Mostly no or only one side have it. I wonder if there where more cards providing / allowing Battle Bridge Side decks (such as Seeds this and get an extra BBSD)

What do you think, do you like more Battle Bridge Side decks used, or don´t you like the concept of [Tac] cards?
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#331443
I don't really love BBS or Tactics. I've never found them tactical. IMO, they never really added strategy or depth to battle that you wanted them to. I'm not saying get rid of them or anything, they do consistently give a boost to weapons and shields that are needed as an incentive to battle. The HULL card damage markers work much better than a rotation, and give some real player interaction. So I like that part of tactics, the damage markers alone make them worthwhile.

As far as adding more cards that work to Tactics, that might work. It would have to be implemented very carefully. There are Tactic combos out there, like Chain Reaction Ricochet + Chain Reaction Pulsar and various people's maneuvers, but they are rarely used effectively. I personally don't see promoting Tactic use as a big concern.
 
By HoodieDM
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331459
More dilemmas that add [Down] and [Flip] the better and more temptation to use a BBD.

Though I do think that BBD should be allowed to seed for free and its deck size limited to just 15 cards (or some sort of small/medium max).

And I think a type of Q's Tent should be free seedable as well. And the CC could come up with diff versions of that as well.

~D
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331472
Timo wrote:I don't really love BBS or Tactics. I've never found them tactical. IMO, they never really added strategy or depth to battle that you wanted them to. I'm not saying get rid of them or anything, they do consistently give a boost to weapons and shields that are needed as an incentive to battle. The HULL card damage markers work much better than a rotation, and give some real player interaction. So I like that part of tactics, the damage markers alone make them worthwhile.
I pretty much agree with this. I think the biggest problem is that you only get to draw two tactics. There's not much use in including conditionally-useful tactics because you'll either draw them too rarely or too often. I mean seriously, what choices do you have? Unless you're drawing extra tactics, you have at most three: the two tactics you drew, plus the no-tactic option of ATTACK +0 DEFENSE +0 | Default Damage . But the tactics might be the same card, and the no-tactic option might be strictly worse than one of your tactics.

Looking at the BBD-related achievements, over twice as many people have "all the same tactic" than have "all different tactics" (for both play and win).

I'm not sure if it's a good idea at this point to change the number of tactics you draw, but I'd like cards that let you draw more. We already have Keogh and Senator Letant who can download Attack Pattern Delta, but it would be nice to have some personnel who download Battle Bridge Door.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331530
Okay sad to here that you 2 are not found of tactics. but it gives me clearity.

Personaly i love them, and i´d love to see both player use them to add randomness to battle. maybe it would encourage adding 2 tactics (one defensive and one offensive).

I also like to see new ships having a special download for specific [Tac] s. That way the rare tactics like Maximum Firepower, Picard Manöver etc. could be downloaded while still drawing the regular tactic card of one´s choice.
 
By Klauser
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331537
I do give Decipher credit for responding to player criticism that battle was too formulaic before BoG’s release. However, like many of their game mechanics towards the end of their run, I found the implementation of Tactics unnecessarily complicated.

To be honest, unless I was specifically focused on a battle strategy OR I thought my opponent was doing the same, I found them an unnecessary game complication that ate up a seed slot.
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By VioletBlaze (Violet Edgar)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331538
All that said, it DOES sound like prime territory for a new expansion to explore, and make the Battle Bridge and Tactics much more relevant/interesting/playable.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of a few ways one could mix things up (A new BBD that includes a download maybe, as well as new rules on how to use tactics... more tactics [DL], cards that reference damage markers, etc...)

Assuming any of that actually, you know.. works.
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By The Mad Vulcan (J)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331548
Big fan of tactics here. There is plenty of reason to use a BBD in a battle deck, I'd like to see more incentive to use one in a solver. And I have seen decks which do, but it is a seed slot, it would be nice if more of the tactics worked toward saving one's hide rather than ensuring success in confrontation.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331561
Klauser wrote:I do give Decipher credit for responding to player criticism that battle was too formulaic before BoG’s release. However, like many of their game mechanics towards the end of their run, I found the implementation of Tactics unnecessarily complicated.

To be honest, unless I was specifically focused on a battle strategy OR I thought my opponent was doing the same, I found them an unnecessary game complication that ate up a seed slot.
Agreed. Battle became exciting with the introduction of BBD. I would say that BBD has been given quite a bit of attention with the last couple of sets, particularly Crossover with Expert Pilot and the 20th Anniversary set with Worf (20th Anniversary Collection)

It takes some set up but DS9 has a strong BBD combination with:

Expert Pilot + Jadzia Dax + U.S.S. Defiant + Worf (20th Anniversary Collection) + Evasive Maneuvers.

You could have a +8 defense for the Defiant on top of the bonus from Captain's Log and other card enhancements.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331603
I remember when BoG came out - tactics were a really exciting addition. Battle became so much more interesting.

Ultimately, I don't think the attack and defensive bonuses really added much to the game - generally, one's attack countered the opponents defense, and vice versa. But the effects and variability of damage markers made battle seem a lot cooler and more interactive.

It's a pity that it takes a seed slot - that extra, interesting behavior shouldn't have a cost attached to it, to de-incentivize players from playing with it. I almost feel like tactics were a bit of a "gameplay errata," to resolve the terrible battle rules from beforehand - and gameplay errata shouldn't require additional costs.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331666
frakkingoff wrote:
It's a pity that it takes a seed slot - that extra, interesting behavior shouldn't have a cost attached to it, to de-incentivize players from playing with it.
:thumbsup:

I also think if both player regulary have BBSD, it becames more interactive and arrives at its full potential. E.g. having the choice between a defensive +4 Evasive Manöver or a offensive +4 Pulse phaser would be a real decision then.
Last edited by Mr.Sloan on Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
By Klauser
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331669
frakkingoff wrote: ... Ultimately, I don't think the attack and defensive bonuses really added much to the game - generally, one's attack countered the opponents defense, and vice versa. But the effects and variability of damage markers made battle seem a lot cooler and more interactive.
Agreed. :thumbsup:
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#331711
I really like the added depth the damage markers give to the game as well as making it so much more thematic both when taking damage as well as when making repairs. Tactics is a bit of a hard one to use and plan for though. And as someone else stated earlier, it's a bit cumbersome when only one player use them.
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#331718
I've been thinking, I would go even further. Tactics aren't effective in ship battle, and over all ship battle in this game has never worked very well (compared to other games out there).

Tactics DO work well as damage markers combo-ed with damaging dilemmas. This allows for some creative kill targeting. I think the CC has been focusing on this in design, with the recent use of [Flip] and indirectly with damaging self controlled dilemma-ships. And like I said, I think this alone make Tactics worthwhile and I agree with the CC's approach.

An actual battle deck doesn't care as much about damage markers. It's goal is destruction, crippling a mission solver before it can solve missions (and being ready to destroy a hiding ship as soon as it goes after a mission). BBD is reduced to just another source of weapon build up, just like a seeded bynars-type card. And its not even an important part of the rapid build up strategy that battle decks are built around.

A solver defending against a battle deck doesn't have much use for a BBD either. The strategy against battle is hiding or avoidance. I've often included BBD hoping it would be some defense, but I don't think Evasive Maneuvers has ever made the difference against a battle deck, +4 shields is nothing. (Has it for anybody else?)

Battle deck v Battle deck is where Tactics should shine, but it's the same thing. Because of the way ship battle works with everybody targeting one ship, you take turns destroying ships. Any strategy has to do with ship movement and organization. But it's mostly a straight up arms race.

I think battle in 1E could be completely over-hauled. That would be a big project, and there's still the question of how much battle we want in the game anyways (if you want to fight, there are plenty of other games).

I think there are more creative ways Tactics could be used in the mean time. Two ideas I had just now:
- An offensive Tactic that helps spread out damage among targets, maybe like Chain Reaction but not dependent on other cards and more balanced.
- Some practical defensive Tactics, like a Crimson Forcefield for the defender, a tactic that plays on your ship with +% hull, or a Tactic that works like Escape Pod somehow.


I don't want any free seeds, because that makes something a ruled auto-include. I know there are already cards that are nearly effectively auto-includes, but they are still optional. And auto-includes would be a big deterrent for new players. Particularly a side-deck should never be an ruled auto-include.
 
By Klauser
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#331795
Timo wrote:... I think battle in 1E could be completely over-hauled. That would be a big project, and there's still the question of how much battle we want in the game anyways (if you want to fight, there are plenty of other games).
Interesting that you brought that up. Many in our local group have said the same thing. One player came up with a concept for an alternate combat side deck (working name was "Combat Deck") that was fairly simple and didn't require any additional mechanics. I thought it had a lot of potential, and even drafted quite a few concept cards for testing. Unfortunately, work/real life interfered and we didn't have a chance to do much more than beta-test the concept.
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