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By KDBKGB
 - New Member
 -  
#350923
I have a rules question about the interaction between Borg Ships and the card Federation Flagship Recovered. When a Borg Cube owned by a player who has Federation Flagship recovered in play is destroyed, what is the result? I.e. does the cube go to the opponent's points area or does Federation Flagship Recovered override so that the cube ends up being discarded along with Federation Flagship Recovered?
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#351324
Good question. Federation Flagship: Recovered and Borg Cube.

My understanding is that earned point box cards are diverted to the point area as they go to the discard. It seems like you are right, the Borg Cube goes straight to FFR instead of going to the discard so it never has a chance to end up in opponent's point area. From the glossary description in Borg: Borg-Affiliation Ships, it says the points are earned by opponent when they destroy it in battle. So, it sounds like they already got the points even if the card ends up on FFR.

But I'm not 100% sure about this. Should wait for a ruling from pfti or a rules guru.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#351326
Borg rules say a Borg ship destroyed in battle scores points for opponent.

FF: Recovered triggers when a ship gets destroyed.

I don't see an inherent conflict here. Is it just the lack of card in point area? Is that a necessary condition to debiting the points or just a helpful reminder.

If the latter, I see no issue. If the former, then I'm guessing timing rules come into play and it gets ugly from there.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#351446
Rules as worded seem to indicate that the opponent does not score the bonus points as the ship's card is diverted to FFR. :twocents:
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#351484
Seems like this is an instance of card text trumping the regular rules. Normally, the card would go to the points area of the opponent, and all cards aboard would be discarded, but Flagship: Recovered overrides the normal rules of the game by stating the ship and all cards aboard are placed on Recovered upon destruction.
 
By Davey1983
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#351495
Proconsul Neral wrote:Rules as worded seem to indicate that the opponent does not score the bonus points as the ship's card is diverted to FFR. :twocents:
Cards do not have to be in the point area for someone to score the points.
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2021
#351527
Timo wrote:Good question. Federation Flagship: Recovered and Borg Cube.

My understanding is that earned point box cards are diverted to the point area as they go to the discard. It seems like you are right, the Borg Cube goes straight to FFR instead of going to the discard so it never has a chance to end up in opponent's point area. From the glossary description in Borg: Borg-Affiliation Ships, it says the points are earned by opponent when they destroy it in battle. So, it sounds like they already got the points even if the card ends up on FFR.

But I'm not 100% sure about this. Should wait for a ruling from pfti or a rules guru.
I agree with this. Putting the card in the point area happens as a result of earning the points, it's not a condition for earning the points in this case.
Glossary wrote:bonus point area – When you score points from any non-mission card with a point box, that card (unless it remains on a target or otherwise specifies that it stays in play to score the points) is placed in a bonus point area near your discard pile, as a reminder of those points, even if the card says to discard it.
I'd argue that FFR makes the ship "remain on a target," or if nothing else overrides where the ship normally goes. Then when FFR is discarded, the ship also goes to the discard pile because the points have already been scored and the window for relocating to the point area has passed.

Another fun question is how FFR works with Ultimatum, since both are actions that happen "just" after a ship is destroyed. (And Ultimatum DOES require placing the ship in the point area to score points.) I imagine something like this happens:
- The Dominion player probably destroyed the ship during his/her turn, so Ultimatum resolves first. Dom player places ship in point area and scores points.
- Then FFR resolves, placing the ship on itself. The points have already been scored for Ultimatum, so relocating it afterward doesn't undo those points.

Is there anything wrong with this interpretation? Is there anything problematic with relocating a card after it's already been relocated?

This would be so much easier if FFR just relocated the crew to itself and not the ship. :)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#351628
The glossary says that the cards are moved to the bonus point area as a reminder. It doesn't say they're moved as a requirement of scoring points. So the points are scored, even if the card ends up elsewhere.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#423734
I knew this situation sounded familiar... It just came up in a game I played.

Here's my question, which was relevant to my game:

The attacking player initiates battle. The defending player has an opportunity to prevent that battle (or do whatever is allowed upon initiation).

The battle commences, tactics drawn, damage dealt.

Ship is destroyed.

At this point, two cards in play can be triggered by the "just" destroyed ship consequence. By my understanding, they should be triggered in sequence. But what sequence?

I think the impetus is back to the attacking player, as the defender had an opportunity for action already. Therefore, Ultimatum should trigger first among the "justs".

Usually, when Ultimatum takes the card to the point area, the personnel are discarded.

But FF:R says you may then relocate all cards aboard. When FF:R triggers immediately after an Ultimatum, I don't believe it should save the crew, because they're no longer aboard, due to the timing of Ultimatum before FF:R.

Can anyone clarify this?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#423739
JeBuS wrote:I knew this situation sounded familiar... It just came up in a game I played.

The attacking player initiates battle. The defending player has an opportunity to prevent that battle (or do whatever is allowed upon initiation).The battle commences, tactics drawn, damage dealt. Ship is destroyed.

At this point, two cards in play can be triggered by the "just" destroyed ship consequence. By my understanding, they should be triggered in sequence. But what sequence?

I think the impetus is back to the attacking player, as the defender had an opportunity for action already. Therefore, Ultimatum should trigger first among the "justs". Usually, when Ultimatum takes the card to the point area, the personnel are discarded.

But FF:R says you may then relocate all cards aboard. When FF:R triggers immediately after an Ultimatum, I don't believe it should save the crew, because they're no longer aboard, due to the timing of Ultimatum before FF:R.

Can anyone clarify this?
This is really two questions:

(1) If both players have a "just" response to a ship being destroyed in battle, who gets to go first?
(2) If FF: Rec is triggered immediately after (in the same "just" window) as Ultimatum, what happens?

The answer to (1) is, the defender always gets the first just response. See actions - taking turns ("When an action you initiated is in its optional responses step, your opponent has the first opportunity to initiate a response"). So your opponent would get to trigger FF:Rec before you flip Ultimatum. Please do not ask me how this would work vs. a [Self] card, because it hurt my brain to think about it briefly.

I'm less confident about the answer to (2), but I think this is how it works: if Ultimatum (for whatever reason) activates first, the ship is plucked out of the air on the way to the discard pile and goes to your point area instead; you score bonus points. Then Fed Flag: Recovered activates. The ship was still "just destroyed" because no non-"just" responses have been used yet -- so the gametext still works. The ship leaves your points area (you keep the points), the cards aboard are plucked out of the air on their way to the discard pile and go with, and the card plays out as normal. But you still get points, so that's cool.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#423744
I don't think that is correct. The optional response was to initiation, not to destruction. No action was taken to destroy the ship after initiation, and the defender already responded to that.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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By 9of24 (Jeremy Huth)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Counterpart
#423805
Bolded for emphasis.
actions – “just” – Some actions may be
initiated only just after some other action or
condition has occurred, before anything else
can intervene (except another “just” action).
These are typically indicated by the word
“just” in game text. It may be a response to
another action (e.g., “just initiated,” “just
played”), or it may be a new action that
follows the result of the other action (e.g.,
“just completed,” “just reported”). An action
may be responded to or followed by any
number of applicable “just” actions. “Just”
actions always take place before non- “just”
actions. This may allow or require you to
initiate an action when it would otherwise be
your opponent’s turn to do so. For example,
you initiate a planet mission attempt and
solve the mission. Although it is normally
your opponent’s turn to initiate the next
action, you may first play Particle Fountain
(“play...on just completed planet mission”).
James is correct in that it would be the defender's turn to act after the battle. So in the case where both players have a just action the defender gets to use their just action first.
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By KNomad (Damon Sommer)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#423841
This is interesting (Ultimatum/FF:R) .. can't both cards resolve?

1) Borg ship destroyed .. opponent scores points irregardless of where the ship physically ends up

2) Borg resolves FF:R - destroyed ship goes to discard

3) Dominion resolves Ultimatum - destroyed ship moves to Dominion's Point Box.

I see no problems resolving both, the question is whether the destroyed ship ultimately ends up in the Borg players discard pile or in the Dominion players point area.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#424246
Irregardless...

English is dead to me! Dead!

::huddles in corner crying::
 
By sevencrdspud (Jason Beyer)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
#424872
Another question.

If an Assimilate Homeworld is in play with a targeted counterpart aboard the cube that gets destroyed and subsequently "Restored," what happens to Assimilate Homeworld?

Nothing?
Does the counterpart leave play for a moment before returning to the new cube? (If so does Assimilate Homeworld get discarded for lack of counterpart target?)

Thanks!

Jason

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