This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434737
This past weekend I was playing a causal game with a friend where I used Federation Flagship: Relauched and downloaded the Chain of Command Enterprise-E. This prompted a discussion of which version of the ship do we like better. Visually I think the First Contact version is better looking, but gameplay wise the Chain of Command Enterprise is far superior with its attribute bonus for the [EE] on board. Having a possible 10-16-17 ship that is a mobile base is nice! We spent the next 15 or 20 minutes just talking about the Big E.

I thought I would bring that discussion up here as well. Do you think the CC designers of Chain of Command Enterprise-E might have over done it just a little with the attribute enhancement? If you have all the [EE] on board it is a 10-16-17 ship. If the designers were to develop the card now would it be capped at +5? Is the First Contact Enterprise binder fodder now?
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#434742
I've used the FC EE occasionally because it's easier to staff, and there are some games where guaranteed Turn 1 staffing is just crucial.

The CoC EE is good, and could be made too good if a bunch of [EE] personnel eventually get made. But getting all the EE guys aboard is hard and will take much of the game, there's a limited number of EE personnel, the EE has to deal with [Fed] battle restrictions, and 10-16-17 is great but not a gamebreaker, especially with such a huge investment.

There's no risk, in other words, of a Battlestar Enterprise scenario, where everyone in the deck became a contributor to base stats and they passed 30.

CoC EE is an ambitious and powerful card, but I don't think it's too good, and I'm glad Design resisted the temptation (easier back then than it is today) to stick a "(limit 5)" clause on there just to be on the safe side.

My :twocents: , anyway. Good topic!
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#434759
The big E was designed to fight Borg cubes, and the stat buff reflects that fact. If it had a limit, [EE] wouldn't be playable, as the hoops for flagship relaunched wouldn't be worth jumping through. You take [EE] for the beat stick that is the E, we jokingly refer to it as the Uchuu Senkan Enterprise. :wink:
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434762
I guess my question stems more from a design philosophy. Just to play devil's advocate: should the CC be creating cards like the Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) that makes its other counterpart "Binder Fodder"? The First Contact Enterprise was nothing to scoff at with 10-9-10 stats and if engaged with the Borg +3 to weapons and shields. That isn't bad at all with just the base numbers. But the Chain of Commander version even with lower weapons and shields at its base is still better once it is beefed by the [EE] crew. As BCSWowbagger pointed out the FC Enterprise can be staffed turn 1 which is a boon in some games, so I guess it just fits your philosophy of what you are trying to accomplish with your deck and which Enterprise-E helps you meet that goal, but I also find it discouraging to see no decks listed that use the FC version because for me that was the ship I was the most excited to get my hands.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#434788
Sorry Tyberius, but I'm finding your reasoning kind of silly. Should we lament that no one uses the old support personnel version of tomalok anymore? Or that no one uses the support personnel version of Neral?
Should I be discouraged that no one uses these garbage versions of personnel. That's just none sense...

In fact I see it in the opposite way, they aren't making binder fodder, their taking cards out of the binder. If not for the new version of the big E and relaunched, I highly doubt anyone would even use the [EE] personnel.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434791
Tyberius_Deangelo wrote:I guess my question stems more from a design philosophy. Just to play devil's advocate: should the CC be creating cards like the Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) that makes its other counterpart "Binder Fodder"? The First Contact Enterprise was nothing to scoff at with 10-9-10 stats and if engaged with the Borg +3 to weapons and shields. That isn't bad at all with just the base numbers. But the Chain of Commander version even with lower weapons and shields at its base is still better once it is beefed by the [EE] crew. As BCSWowbagger pointed out the FC Enterprise can be staffed turn 1 which is a boon in some games, so I guess it just fits your philosophy of what you are trying to accomplish with your deck and which Enterprise-E helps you meet that goal, but I also find it discouraging to see no decks listed that use the FC version because for me that was the ship I was the most excited to get my hands.
Not sure that matters. That's been going on since Decipher. Who uses Premiere Deanna Troi over FC or Borg Deanna Troi unless they really want her as a support personnel? And I know Neral gave some examples too. Sometimes it just happens. In fact a lot of 'multi' personnel have that problem. In the long run is it worth using FC Picard over Premiere Picard? Or is another Picard better? Is FC William Riker the most superior of the Riker personas? How can any future Voyager personas compare to what was released in the Voyager expansion? These are only a few examples listed here of this question.

As for me, it would depend on the purpose of my deck. In theory there are ways to staff both versions of Enterprise-E in one turn but the FC one is indeed easier (Defend Homeworld Worf or Jean-Luc, Support Personnel Jae and Mission Specialist Eiger) but with slightly more luck you could also staff the CoC one in one turn too (requires good card draws or Ready Room Door.)
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#434815
I'll admit, if I ever do an EE deck, I'd use the CoC Enterprise any day.

But....

I fucking hate the image. Not arts fault at all. I've always had a hatred for the CG version of the Enterprise-E in the last two TNG films. The model used in First Contact is simply gorgeous and helps the film stand the test of time visually, more so than Insurrection and Nemesis.

So if you ever face me and I'm using a TNG movie deck, prepare for me to be angry...
 
By HoodieDM
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#434819
Tyberius_Deangelo wrote:I guess my question stems more from a design philosophy. Just to play devil's advocate: should the CC be creating cards like the Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) that makes its other counterpart "Binder Fodder"? The First Contact Enterprise was nothing to scoff at with 10-9-10 stats and if engaged with the Borg +3 to weapons and shields. That isn't bad at all with just the base numbers. But the Chain of Commander version even with lower weapons and shields at its base is still better once it is beefed by the [EE] crew. As BCSWowbagger pointed out the FC Enterprise can be staffed turn 1 which is a boon in some games, so I guess it just fits your philosophy of what you are trying to accomplish with your deck and which Enterprise-E helps you meet that goal, but I also find it discouraging to see no decks listed that use the FC version because for me that was the ship I was the most excited to get my hands.
You guys forgot to mention that the CoC version also allows Riker to be matching commander.

~D
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#434820
Is it not too hampering if the FC one is downloaded, then persona swap later with the CoC version?

Dunno, just asking. If you're playing a deck that discards cards (Ore) then is it a decent option?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434821
Proconsul Neral wrote:Sorry Tyberius, but I'm finding your reasoning kind of silly. Should we lament that no one uses the old support personnel version of tomalok anymore? Or that no one uses the support personnel version of Neral?
Should I be discouraged that no one uses these garbage versions of personnel. That's just none sense...

In fact I see it in the opposite way, they aren't making binder fodder, their taking cards out of the binder. If not for the new version of the big E and relaunched, I highly doubt anyone would even use the [EE] personnel.
And you have every right to think that. I was just playing a little devil's advocate and throwing an idea out there to see what you all thought. I am more in the line of thinking with what BCSWowbagger wrote. Different persona/versions of ships and people give players option to have cards that meets their objective for playing that deck. And, too, just because this website does not show any decks listed doesn't mean the card isn't being played by someone. The deck just hasn't been uploaded to the website. I made a mistake a few years ago about why a certain card isn't being used and quickly learned from people on the forums that it was used but not loaded into the deck builder.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434825
HoodieDM wrote:
Tyberius_Deangelo wrote:I guess my question stems more from a design philosophy. Just to play devil's advocate: should the CC be creating cards like the Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) that makes its other counterpart "Binder Fodder"? The First Contact Enterprise was nothing to scoff at with 10-9-10 stats and if engaged with the Borg +3 to weapons and shields. That isn't bad at all with just the base numbers. But the Chain of Commander version even with lower weapons and shields at its base is still better once it is beefed by the [EE] crew. As BCSWowbagger pointed out the FC Enterprise can be staffed turn 1 which is a boon in some games, so I guess it just fits your philosophy of what you are trying to accomplish with your deck and which Enterprise-E helps you meet that goal, but I also find it discouraging to see no decks listed that use the FC version because for me that was the ship I was the most excited to get my hands.
You guys forgot to mention that the CoC version also allows Riker to be matching commander.

~D
Uh actually that's a component of the CoC Riker though, not of the ship itself. He can command the FC Enterprise-E just as easily. In fact in theory both Coc Riker and FC Picard can command the [Bor] Enterprise-E in the 20th anniversary set.
 
By HoodieDM
 - Delta Quadrant
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#434845
Slayer07 wrote: Uh actually that's a component of the CoC Riker though, not of the ship itself. He can command the FC Enterprise-E just as easily. In fact in theory both Coc Riker and FC Picard can command the [Bor] Enterprise-E in the 20th anniversary set.
From the Enterprise-E CoC lore text: "The latest in the Enterprise line, it gets "all the easy assignments." Commanded by William T. Riker in the Briar Patch incident with the Son'a."

~D
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#434850
I think that's there so that FC Riker can be the Matching Commander for the CoC EE since FC Riker and FC EE don't say he is.

This:
CoC Riker wrote:While in command of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E,
Riker defended the ship against attack by the Son'a.
means FC Riker can commander either EE.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
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#434853
HoodieDM wrote:
Slayer07 wrote: Uh actually that's a component of the CoC Riker though, not of the ship itself. He can command the FC Enterprise-E just as easily. In fact in theory both Coc Riker and FC Picard can command the [Bor] Enterprise-E in the 20th anniversary set.
From the Enterprise-E CoC lore text: "The latest in the Enterprise line, it gets "all the easy assignments." Commanded by William T. Riker in the Briar Patch incident with the Son'a."

~D
From William T. Riker (Chain of Command) lore text: "While in command of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E, Riker defended the ship against attack by the Son'a." That allows both CoC Enterprise-E and FC Enterprise-E as they are both the same name despite different card personas. Follow the link and you will see he can command both versions of the Enterprise-E along with technically The Borg version and the 2E version for the moment.

The one neat thing about your reference though is that William T. Riker from Premiere can command the U.S.S Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) as well which had escaped me, which at least to me is neat because that leaves Jean-Luc Picard to command the U.S.S. Enterprise. He can even provide the command icon for it though he has to rely on two [EE] for the rest of the staffing.
 
By HoodieDM
 - Delta Quadrant
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#434864
Slayer07 wrote:
HoodieDM wrote:
Slayer07 wrote: Uh actually that's a component of the CoC Riker though, not of the ship itself. He can command the FC Enterprise-E just as easily. In fact in theory both Coc Riker and FC Picard can command the [Bor] Enterprise-E in the 20th anniversary set.
From the Enterprise-E CoC lore text: "The latest in the Enterprise line, it gets "all the easy assignments." Commanded by William T. Riker in the Briar Patch incident with the Son'a."

~D
From William T. Riker (Chain of Command) lore text: "While in command of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E, Riker defended the ship against attack by the Son'a." That allows both CoC Enterprise-E and FC Enterprise-E as they are both the same name despite different card personas. Follow the link and you will see he can command both versions of the Enterprise-E along with technically The Borg version and the 2E version for the moment.

The one neat thing about your reference though is that William T. Riker from Premiere can command the U.S.S Enterprise-E (Chain of Command) as well which had escaped me, which at least to me is neat because that leaves Jean-Luc Picard to command the U.S.S. Enterprise. He can even provide the command icon for it though he has to rely on two [EE] for the rest of the staffing.
Correct, but thats what makes the CoC EE better. It allows ALL William T. Rikers. The William T. Riker CoC sure allows him to command either EE, but thats the particular Riker. The CoC ship allows any, thats why it has one additional plus over the other ship.

~D
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