[MidnightLich]

Hello all,

I know that there are several regionals over the next several weeks, and that any changes that come out on the scheduled first Monday of April (the 2nd) won't give people attending those events a lot of notice. It is for this reason that I'm sharing here an addition to the ban list, effective Monday, April 2nd: Seek Hidden Reliquary.

Once again, to be explicitly clear: this card will be banned on Monday, April 2nd. It won't affect the UK Regional this weekend or any tournaments this coming weekend. It will affect events the weekend of April 7th & 8th, and beyond. That's why I sharing it here, on the forums, ahead of the official announcement on Monday. I'll be sharing more of the data we've used to make this decision in the official announcement, but there has been a lot of discussion on this card (and Kir'shara) so I doubt it's too much of a surprise.

If you are running a tournament next weekend (7 April or 8 April) or later, please share this message with your players. An extra week's notice might not matter, or it might matter quite a bit. Please let your players know this will be taking effect Monday, April 2nd and we don't make this decision lightly.

TL;DR: Seek Hidden Reliquary will be banned in OTF play on Monday, April 2nd, 2018.

-crp

[Armus]

I fully support the decision on the merits to ban this card. I also appreciate that the Chairman reached out to me as a TD running a Regional right after the effective date of the ban and asked my opinion on the best way to announce this decision with minimal disruption.

Now everybody who was planning on attending (including the road warriors who reached out to me today) will have almost two full weeks to adjust their deck/ meta analysis, which should be sufficient time to make and test any needed changes.

This is how these sorts of things should be handled.

Good job, CC (and Charlie specifically)!

[Jono]

Second card from this set to already be banned or receive errata.
#fail

[MidnightLich]

Second card from this set to already be banned or receive errata.
#fail

Hi Sean,

I don't think "#fail" is fair.

I won't argue that it's good that these cards are above the curve, but it's not a failure. A failure would be a set full of cards that never see play - which is what a lot of early CC 1E design made. We made a mistake with a small percentage (2 out of 62) of the cards in Live Long and Prosper, and that is unfortunate. But I would rather try and make fun, powerful, and playable cards 100 times out of 100 than let fear lead us to deliver a flat, boring expansion.

We have a ban list and an Errata Team in place as a safety net, so that if we make a mistake - again, a rare occurrence - we can catch it and fix it. Our testers and our Rules team work incredibly hard with the design teams to deliver a quality expansion. In the case of Wisdom/Kir'Shara/Seek Hidden Reliquary, we missed the mark. It's been a learning experience for us, and will allow us to make adjustments to how we do things so that we don't repeat the same mistakes.

But I don't consider Live Long and Prosper, or Vulcans, a failure.

-crp

[Armus]

Second card from this set to already be banned or receive errata.
#fail

It's only a fail if they don't act and degenerate decks ruin the competitive season.

Go read Kevin's post for a list of really good reasons why Reliquary was overpowered and tell me this isn't a good move.

Thing is, Starfleet is clearly tier one and I think Vulcans can be tier one as well. They've just gone from ridiculous to "only" really strong. I'm interested to see what develops.

[Jono]

Second card from this set to already be banned or receive errata.
#fail

Hi Sean,

I don't think "#fail" is fair.

I won't argue that it's good that these cards are above the curve, but it's not a failure. A failure would be a set full of cards that never see play - which is what a lot of early CC 1E design made. We made a mistake with a small percentage (2 out of 62) of the cards in Live Long and Prosper, and that is unfortunate. But I would rather try and make fun, powerful, and playable cards 100 times out of 100 than let fear lead us to deliver a flat, boring expansion.

We have a ban list and an Errata Team in place as a safety net, so that if we make a mistake - again, a rare occurrence - we can catch it and fix it. Our testers and our Rules team work incredibly hard with the design teams to deliver a quality expansion. In the case of Wisdom/Kir'Shara/Seek Hidden Reliquary, we missed the mark. It's been a learning experience for us, and will allow us to make adjustments to how we do things so that we don't repeat the same mistakes.

But I don't consider Live Long and Prosper, or Vulcans, a failure.

-crp

I don’t consider the Live Long and Prosper set a failure, in fact just the opposite. I like the idea of Vulcans and the playability.

I do consider it a fail two cards from an expansion approximately six months old are banned due to being overpowered by themselves, not because of an unforeseen “broken” combination with one of the thousands of other cards in the game.

For example, I completely supported the errata of Vulcan Mindmeld (which is still a very powerful card when used as a special download). That is an old card that gained immense power with the LLAP set the card needed errata.

I know the testers work very hard (and there are never enough of them), however any new type of gameplay mechanism does need extensive testing (and the mechanism allowing Vulcans to attempt all of one type of mission or replace skills (IDIC:TWOS) are two such mechanisms.

To fall back on the errata team and ban list is a crutch we should not depend upon. It is an absolute last resort. Let’s hope the mark isn’t missed again for a long while.

[LORE]

I'm glad this card is getting sent to the corner until it can be culturally reinforced. My #1 concern as DoOP is ensuring everyone has a good time at their respective Regional events, and I was admittedly concerned that could be jeopardized by a few of the cards from LLaP. Particularly, the number of decks I have seen lately running Seek Hidden Reliquary -> Kirshara or just Kirshara as a stand alone for comically easy 2-mission wins.

Mind you, none of these decks are Vulcan affiliation either. Most were Fed, another was Romulan, and still another one was Ferengi. Clearly, there is a disconnect between how the cards were designed to work to bolster a fledgling affiliation versus how they are being used in the wild to pump up factions who don't need the help. I for one am glad it is getting curbed before it gets too far out of hand.

[MidnightLich]

I for one am glad it is getting curbed before it gets too far out of hand.

I am hopeful we, as a department, can get much more proactive about problems.

-crp

[BCSWowbagger]

I know the testers work very hard (and there are never enough of them), however any new type of gameplay mechanism does need extensive testing (and the mechanism allowing Vulcans to attempt all of one type of mission or replace skills (IDIC:TWOS) are two such mechanisms.

To fall back on the errata team and ban list is a crutch we should not depend upon. It is an absolute last resort. Let’s hope the mark isn’t missed again for a long while.

This is a good segue into my usual plug: 1E needs more testers. PM MidnightLich to sign up your group of two or more today.

Live Long and Prosper fell (effectively) all on the shoulders of a single group. To catch everything, especially on the short timetables testers had at the end of the cycle (when Syrannites came together) is too much to expect of any single table. Without more testers, the mark will be missed again, and sooner than later.

[MidnightLich]

Live Long and Prosper fell (effectively) all on the shoulders of a single group. To catch everything, especially on the short timetables testers had at the end of the cycle (when Syrannites came together) is too much to expect of any single table. Without more testers, the mark will be missed again, and sooner than later.

I don't agree with this assessment. We have one very active groups, but several groups that test as often as they can. Testing is hard, and it's thankless, and for most people it's not fun. But our testers do the work because they care about 1E, and we all benefit.

Live Long and Prosper was doing a lot, and some cards were changing right up until the very end. That's a lesson we can learn from, but it isn't the fault of any one aspect of the process.

-crp

[BCSWowbagger]

What I wrote was certainly not a criticism of the current testers, and I apologize insofar as it read that way. I agree with everything you said there, Charlie. They do indeed work long, thankless hours to get the sets whipped into shape. Their tireless work, despite being spread so very thin, has allowed 1E to keep up a pace of a couple hundred cards a year or so -- and I think it's easy to forget just how improbable that is.

But they need more support from more people, especially when we're talking about late-breaking changes in a set, or stuff's going to slip through the cracks. That's not an indictment of the testing department, but of the lack of resources the department suffers from.

[HoodieDM]

Mind you, none of these decks are Vulcan affiliation either. Most were Fed, another was Romulan, and still another one was Ferengi. Clearly, there is a disconnect between how the cards were designed to work to bolster a fledgling affiliation versus how they are being used in the wild to pump up factions who don't need the help. I for one am glad it is getting curbed before it gets too far out of hand.

That's why we need more Objectives (that seed for free), but affiliation specific! This would give affiliations more of their own feeling that we've been clamoring more for, while still keeping the game in-line. And they don't have to be 10+ additional points. A simple 5 points on a 30 points (or less) mission would then make it 35 points (still unstealable) but add requirements to get those 5 points (or an extra card draw or something); like having a captive present for Cardassians/Romulans, having 3 VIPs for Feds present, Bajorans needing some "stolen" equipment present, Klingons having +30 strength present, whatever we need to give them more flavor!

~D

[Hoss-Drone]

Glad to hear this. Now kir'shara is at least as fair as an off zel vase. No d/l it after you've cleared dilemmas and know dead end isn't holding u back.

Now, onto taking charge....

[pfti]

Glad to hear this. Now kir'shara is at least as fair as an off zel vase. No d/l it after you've cleared dilemmas and know dead end isn't holding u back.

[frakkingoff]

This is a good segue into my usual plug: 1E needs more testers. PM MidnightLich to sign up your group of two or more today.

To which you get the usual response: Is online playtesting allowed yet?