This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#421162
Brian,

I know that people will be disappointed and upset about what is and isn't in Metamorphosis. It wasn't my intention to "spin" it any other way; my hope was to be up front and honest about it. I'm simply appealing to everyone to try and not let those feelings turn hostile or destructive.

Our new OP director and I very much agree on "let the player's play" as a guiding principle. Anyone that wants to continue using 1EBC cards in their games is welcome to do so. The "break" is simply severing rules support for those cards, and ending the design restrictions on conversions. I'm 100% certain that more 2E cards will end up in 1E as time moves forward; they just won't be tied to the original with an icon or an image.

-crp
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#421163
EHCCGPP wrote:I am a bit bummed that it's been confirmed that cards were not included due to saving their concepts for future sets.

Basically, that means good card concepts are now being banned from the game for months or even years.
To elaborate on this point - cards that this happened to are now in active design sets. Nothing was held as a "someday we'll make the Fnordian team" - it was the Fnordian design lead saying "yeah, we want to do something with Bob the Fnord, so we'll take it".

This way the teams will be far more coherent, rather than one team making a couple cards and then a future team having to work around it.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#421164
EHCCGPP wrote:I am a bit bummed that it's been confirmed that cards were not included due to saving their concepts for future sets.
Look at it this way: would you rather have a few more Reman cards right now (and not something else) in Metamorphosis, or see them come out with even more support in the movie block? That was the decision we had to face. Ultimately, we let the future lead designer of the Nemesis-themed expansion pull most of the cards so that he and his team could develop them with a lot more support than we had room for.

But, we knew having some Remans would add value to the current game, so we left some personnel in our file. It was a decision made specifically in the hopes of striking the right balance.

-crp
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#421165
Don’t forget, Design are listening to the community. If you want something that didn’t make the cut, lobby for it!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421168
KazonPADD wrote:Don’t forget, Design are listening to the community. If you want something that didn’t make the cut, lobby for it!
Nelvana Trap.

Flavorful and fun.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421171
AllenGould wrote: To Armus' point - the problem is that for every card that is a "fan favorite", there's also people who think that card is useless or trash. This would have been a far easier project if everyone agreed on what the "necessary" (or even "good"!) BC cards were!
That's a bad argument Allen. It's just as bad now as when it was made when the idea of Discommendation was proposed.

Useless or trash Cards != Ban List candidates. Nothing was breaking the game. There's plenty of binder fodder in both games - should we ban all of it? To what end?

The only reason cards should be banned is if they have a negative impact on the game. If there were specific 1EBC cards that were causing NPEs or overly excessive rules baggage (a better argument, if not necessarily one I agree with) then ban THOSE CARDS. The blanket banning of hundreds of cards, a fraction of which may be converted at some point, objectively takes away from the diversity of the game.

I don't want to relitigate a decision that was made two years ago, but your point rings just as hollow now as it did then, and I find it thoroughly unconvincing.

My main point in my post to Charlie is that the decision was made, most people are good with it, a few aren't. That's not a terrible place to land, but the person responsible for the decision telling people on the losing side of it how to feel about it isn't a great look. Those feelings are part of the consequences of the decision and they need to be accepted as such.
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By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#421172
MidnightLich wrote:Subtle clue is subtle. :p
Spend enough hours keying new cards into the database, and you need to do SOMETHING to entertain yourself. ;-) Besides, subtle clue is best clue.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#421173
Armus wrote: That's a bad argument Allen. It's just as bad now as when it was made when the idea of Discommendation was proposed.

Useless or trash Cards != Ban List candidates. Nothing was breaking the game. There's plenty of binder fodder in both games - should we ban all of it? To what end?

The only reason cards should be banned is if they have a negative impact on the game. If there were specific 1EBC cards that were causing NPEs or overly excessive rules baggage (a better argument, if not necessarily one I agree with) then ban THOSE CARDS. The blanket banning of hundreds of cards, a fraction of which may be converted at some point, objectively takes away from the diversity of the game.

I don't want to relitigate a decision that was made two years ago, but your point rings just as hollow now as it did then, and I find it thoroughly unconvincing.

My main point in my post to Charlie is that the decision was made, most people are good with it, a few aren't. That's not a terrible place to land, but the person responsible for the decision telling people on the losing side of it how to feel about it isn't a great look. Those feelings are part of the consequences of the decision and they need to be accepted as such.
:thumbsup:

My :twocents: - I have barely played with the 2EBC cards (though I do try on occasion, mainly with Romulan & Dominion) because I never played 2E when it was out and not familiar with many of them (and I wouldn't mind playing it but 1E Tournaments are always a first for me) - but I feel every card has value (except Barber Pole & Barbering :P ) and I'm always looking for new ways to try and use the 'binder fodder'. I'll be sad when I can't try and use Nelvana Trap or any of the other cards that add more to specific deck archetypes.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#421174
MidnightLich wrote:
EHCCGPP wrote:I am a bit bummed that it's been confirmed that cards were not included due to saving their concepts for future sets.
Look at it this way: would you rather have a few more Reman cards right now (and not something else) in Metamorphosis, or see them come out with even more support in the movie block? That was the decision we had to face. Ultimately, we let the future lead designer of the Nemesis-themed expansion pull most of the cards so that he and his team could develop them with a lot more support than we had room for.

But, we knew having some Remans would add value to the current game, so we left some personnel in our file. It was a decision made specifically in the hopes of striking the right balance.

-crp
I'm glad to hear this, sets that are built around a theme or era makes more sense and fun than having a little bit of this & that.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#421175
Armus wrote:My main point in my post to Charlie is that the decision was made, most people are good with it, a few aren't. That's not a terrible place to land, but the person responsible for the decision telling people on the losing side of it how to feel about it isn't a great look. Those feelings are part of the consequences of the decision and they need to be accepted as such.
Is that really what you think I was doing? :?
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#421178
Armus wrote:
AllenGould wrote: To Armus' point - the problem is that for every card that is a "fan favorite", there's also people who think that card is useless or trash. This would have been a far easier project if everyone agreed on what the "necessary" (or even "good"!) BC cards were!
That's a bad argument Allen. It's just as bad now as when it was made when the idea of Discommendation was proposed.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. You were talking about how missing "fan favorites" would be a problem, and I'm saying that unfortunately there is *zero* agreement on what a "fan favorite" is. And I'm not saying "you think it's a 10 and I think it's an 7" - we're in "I think it's a 10 and you think I'm an idiot for even suggesting we waste digital ink on this trash" level disagreement.

Decisions had to be made, and I look forward to your disagreements on what should or shouldn't have made the cut or how many more cards we should have added. Fair warning: odds are we already had those conversations, though.
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#421179
MidnightLich wrote:
EHCCGPP wrote:I am a bit bummed that it's been confirmed that cards were not included due to saving their concepts for future sets.
Look at it this way: would you rather have a few more Reman cards right now (and not something else) in Metamorphosis, or see them come out with even more support in the movie block? That was the decision we had to face. Ultimately, we let the future lead designer of the Nemesis-themed expansion pull most of the cards so that he and his team could develop them with a lot more support than we had room for.

But, we knew having some Remans would add value to the current game, so we left some personnel in our file. It was a decision made specifically in the hopes of striking the right balance.

-crp
To be fair though, I'm not really talking about random Remans. The only Reman important in the overall story is The Viceroy, who we already have covered.

I'm more concerned with, just sticking to Nemesis, people like B-4, Donatra or Hiren.

Or going beyond just Nemesis, suddenly having Shran not in the game for however many months or years it will take to get around to having him would stink. Especially given that Enterprise as a franchise just received a LOT of attention, so it's probably not coming back up on the wheel again for a while.

Honestly, the fact that new versions, if necessary, can be made for those future sets negates a lot of the argument here.

Now all of this said, I of course don't know what the final cardlist would be (and was pretty terrible at predicting it... 24 out of 63? Yuck.), but it seems pretty obvious to me that there will be quite a few cards missed by players, and I hope Design will indeed be listening for them to be brought back into our universe sooner rather than later.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#421181
EHCCGPP wrote:I am a bit bummed that it's been confirmed that cards were not included due to saving their concepts for future sets.

Basically, that means good card concepts are now being banned from the game for months or even years.
I can sympathize with this feeling.

I think that the Designers should write an article listing exactly what these "save for later" cards are. I know that usually they don't like to give these kinds of details about upcoming cards - but "Metamorphosis" is going to ruffle some feathers and upset some people, so I think such an unprecedented reveal - made for the purposes of reassurances to those who otherwise might be quite angry - would be warranted.

A small consolation, but whatever bones can be thrown here should be, in this case.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#421185
AllenGould wrote:
Armus wrote:
AllenGould wrote: To Armus' point - the problem is that for every card that is a "fan favorite", there's also people who think that card is useless or trash. This would have been a far easier project if everyone agreed on what the "necessary" (or even "good"!) BC cards were!
That's a bad argument Allen. It's just as bad now as when it was made when the idea of Discommendation was proposed.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. You were talking about how missing "fan favorites" would be a problem, and I'm saying that unfortunately there is *zero* agreement on what a "fan favorite" is. And I'm not saying "you think it's a 10 and I think it's an 7" - we're in "I think it's a 10 and you think I'm an idiot for even suggesting we waste digital ink on this trash" level disagreement.

Decisions had to be made, and I look forward to your disagreements on what should or shouldn't have made the cut or how many more cards we should have added. Fair warning: odds are we already had those conversations, though.
I think what Brian is trying to say, is that unlike most where it's a block of clay to be molded and shaped, this is a set where the clay is already formed and you're deciding which clays get a touch up and which ones go to the trash heap. You're not making new art, your passing judgement on which art is worthy. Now are you seeing the problem?

So instead of it being about designers having a penchant for certain ideas, we are talking about designers have a clear bias for an existing card. The design team is going to pick their personal favorites for conversion without fail.

This should have been more democratic of a decision vis a vis which cards get converted.

This is also why the otf ban conversions should be all or nothing. Because the only ones getting any effort are those decided by one or 2 people.

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