[Armus]

To Armus' point - the problem is that for every card that is a "fan favorite", there's also people who think that card is useless or trash. This would have been a far easier project if everyone agreed on what the "necessary" (or even "good"!) BC cards were!

That's a bad argument Allen. It's just as bad now as when it was made when the idea of Discommendation was proposed.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. You were talking about how missing "fan favorites" would be a problem, and I'm saying that unfortunately there is *zero* agreement on what a "fan favorite" is. And I'm not saying "you think it's a 10 and I think it's an 7" - we're in "I think it's a 10 and you think I'm an idiot for even suggesting we waste digital ink on this trash" level disagreement.

Decisions had to be made, and I look forward to your disagreements on what should or shouldn't have made the cut or how many more cards we should have added. Fair warning: odds are we already had those conversations, though.

Any disagreements I have on the specifics are not the point.

My fundamental objection is to the entire concept of banning cards that haven't been demonstrated to be bad for the game. The popular argument against converting some (a lot?) of the 2ebc cards is 'nobody uses that card, it sucks, it's not worth the resources.' That's fine. The answer then is don't spend resources on it. In a world where 2ebc cards aren't banned, that trash card can live in the proverbial binder with a whole lot of friends. But you never know, maybe somebody feels adventurous one day and starts experimenting, maybe they stumble into a deck idea that's fun to play, or even -gasp- competitive. The decision to ban such cards forecloses even the possibility of such an event occurring.

That's why I opposed this move two years ago: no additional conversation resources were needed for existing binder fodder cards, so there was minimal downside on that front to leaving well enough alone.

Meanwhile, the part of the community that enjoyed the 2ebc cards just got a few hundred fewer deck building options.

Shit, I've wandered into relitigating a two year old decision.

Bottom line: the 'I think it's a 10, you think it's trash' conundrum is a symptom and consequence of the decision that was made, not a reason to make it. The trash cards could still be in the pool today but they aren't. You might not mourn their passing, but clearly others do.

[KazonPADD]

I believe the argument for was more about simplifying barriers to entry - at some point the utility of the additional 2E cards is outweighed by the complexity of the existence of a subset of card from another game working within 1E with their own special rules. If this makes it easier to recruit new players (or re-enlist those turned off by 2E) AND we can use Metamorphosis to retain the best of 2E, that should be a win-win. If we miss something important, we can sweep it up later - but we also have the freedom to add a function in a different way!

[Armus]

My main point in my post to Charlie is that the decision was made, most people are good with it, a few aren't. That's not a terrible place to land, but the person responsible for the decision telling people on the losing side of it how to feel about it isn't a great look. Those feelings are part of the consequences of the decision and they need to be accepted as such.

Is that really what you think I was doing?

I don't think it was ALL that you were doing, but yes, you were doing it.

Let's review:

Hi all,

I just wanted to write a little bit about expectations, especially for Metamorphosis. I've seen several posts in the vein of, "If they don't convert THIS CARD, I'm going to be angry!" I'm going to tell you know: there are a LOT of cards that didn't get converted. Some were tried and didn't work; some were pulled out for future releases. And yes, some were never really attempted.

The thing is, it didn't matter how big Metamorphosis ended up being or how many converted cards were in it; unless we converted every card, someone was going to be disappointed their card didn't make it. The team focused on the biggest requests and making those cards and groups of cards as good as they could be. There was never a way to make this expansion so that everything that everyone wanted would be in it.

It's okay to be disappointed that your favorites didn't make the final product, but I hope you won't turn that disappointment into anger, frustration, and negativity. There's a lot of really cool stuff in Metamorphosis, and we hope you'll find something to enjoy within, even if your favorite cards aren't there.

-crp

I have absolutely zero problem with the first two paragraphs of this post. To the contrary, I'm glad to see you being upfront and honest about what is and isn't in Metamorphosis. I'm glad you explained that some cards just didn't get there, and that limited resources prevented others from receiving any consideration at all. All good things to be open with the community about.

Where you rubbed me the wrong way was with the last paragraph. First, (and maybe it's just me), 'it's ok to be disappointed' comes off as really patronizing. I don't need your permission to be disappointed. Second, you knew this decision was controversial when you made it, as evidenced by the extensive community feedback that you sought before taking this step - again, a good approach, and one that was handled much better than the OTF changes prior to that that were decided and rolled out with no community feedback - I'm glad to see that you guys learned that lesson.

But despite your best efforts and open communication, there is a subset of this community that was opposed then, and is probably still opposed now, even if they've accepted that the decision has been made. That's unavoidable. However, instead of talking down to them, the right move is to understand that there WILL possibly be anger, there WILL possibly be frustration, and yes, there might even be some negativity in there too. Instead of trying to suppress it, you should invite people to air their grievances. We have a Code of Conduct and a Mod team in case people make it personal or take things too far, but part of being a leader is making decisions and living with the consequences.

Invite the the criticism and frustration - who knows, maybe a design idea or two will come out of it and result in some good outcomes - but please don't talk down to us. There are people on the losing side of the argument with passionate feelings who aren't going to be happy with the result. Don't shut that down, it will only serve to further alienate them.

[Boffo97]

I believe the argument for was more about simplifying barriers to entry - at some point the utility of the additional 2E cards is outweighed by the complexity of the existence of a subset of card from another game working within 1E with their own special rules. If this makes it easier to recruit new players (or re-enlist those turned off by 2E) AND we can use Metamorphosis to retain the best of 2E, that should be a win-win. If we miss something important, we can sweep it up later - but we also have the freedom to add a function in a different way!

But the argument is (at least my argument) is that it's now been admitted that Metamorphosis will not be necessarily retaining the best of 2E. At least parts of that may be gone for months or more likely years. That's not good.

As to the new player argument, we might as well ban The Borg then, since no new player is going to want THAT thrown in their face immediately either, and I would say they're much more complicated than 2E conversion rules (which currently fit on a single sheet).

Without wanting to put words in anyone's mouth, it felt a LOT more like "Get that ugly 2E out of my 1E!" than anything else.

[BCSWowbagger]

suddenly having Shran not in the game for however many months or years it will take to get around to having him would stink

How would this differ from the current state? Have you ever actually seen Shran in a game?

(I'm mostly teasing.)

The only reason cards should be banned is if they have a negative impact on the game. If there were specific 1EBC cards that were causing NPEs or overly excessive rules baggage (a better argument, if not necessarily one I agree with) then ban THOSE CARDS. The blanket banning of hundreds of cards, a fraction of which may be converted at some point, objectively takes away from the diversity of the game.

Banning the 2EBC cards with excessive rules baggage would likely have resulted in a ban list hundreds of cards long. You'd need to:

Ban all the Astrometrics personnel, due to the loaded rule.

Ban all the Intelligence personnel -- the 1E rule is itself too complicated, and the 2E addition makes it even worse.

Ban all 2E cards with "Bajoran Resistance" as a keyword; it's far too confusing how that interacts with the 1E Resistance skill.

Ban all cards, since there aren't resources to errata them to have the icon. ("But, James, some of the current personnel only have that icon, either!" Yeah, and that was a massive 1E failure that directly led, in part, to the replacement of the 1E Brand Manager.)

You'll have to ban Shran, too, and any other 2E personnel without the icon.

Ditto all 2E Jem'Hadar.

Ditto all 2E Holograms.

Ditto all 2E Borg (the way their subcommand icons are set is bonkers and they're all the wrong quadrant)

Ditto all non-Alpha Quadrant 2E Dominion.

Ditto all 2E Punishment, Pursuit, and Rule cards.

Ban all the cards that have specific callouts in the CVRD (2E Khan, 2E Beverly Picard, both versions of I.K.S. Qel'Poh, 2E Tomalak, Investigate Unkonwn Element, Good Shepherd, and so on).

Ban all 2E Mirror personnel who don't fit the 1E persona rule correctly. (Benjamin Sisko, Outlaw; Leeta, Enticing Rebel; and so forth).

Ban all the 2E cards with an insanely confusing icon ( that isn't , that isn't , that is both and somehow despite the precedent of the other two).

Ban all the 2E cards with an icon that doesn't exist in 1E (mainly and ).

Ban anything else that works bizarrely in 1E, or which wouldn't make sense to a new player who has read the 1E rules but not the Conversion Rules.

I admit, I haven't counted up how many cards that would end up being, but I have to imagine it would be at least 100 cards. Astrometrics alone is 47 cards.

All of which is to say, I don't think "just ban the problem cards" would have ended up a very clean solution.

You are, of course, entitled to whatever feelings you're having about Metamorphosis. Personally, I am really, really happy about all this, but I am trying to be sensitive to my more 2E-leaning friends, so I'm not going to dance on 2E's grave or anything. I just don't think the via media you propose there was really a viable path.

[MidnightLich]

Where you rubbed me the wrong way was with the last paragraph. First, (and maybe it's just me), 'it's ok to be disappointed' comes off as really patronizing. I don't need your permission to be disappointed. Second, you knew this decision was controversial when you made it, as evidenced by the extensive community feedback that you sought before taking this step - again, a good approach, and one that was handled much better than the OTF changes prior to that that were decided and rolled out with no community feedback - I'm glad to see that you guys learned that lesson.

But despite your best efforts and open communication, there is a subset of this community that was opposed then, and is probably still opposed now, even if they've accepted that the decision has been made. That's unavoidable. However, instead of talking down to them, the right move is to understand that there WILL possibly be anger, there WILL possibly be frustration, and yes, there might even be some negativity in there too. Instead of trying to suppress it, you should invite people to air their grievances. We have a Code of Conduct and a Mod team in case people make it personal or take things too far, but part of being a leader is making decisions and living with the consequences.

Thank you for this. It was absolutely not my intention to be patronizing or to dismiss anyone's concerns about this whole process. With your feedback, I see how my original statement can be interpreted as if I were talking down to everyone. I will work on clarifying my tone in future posts.

To be absolutely clear, I was firmly against the decision to sever the link of backwards compatible cards. I argued strongly in favor of keeping the status quo, and disagreed with almost every argument made by the "cut" side. But the entire point of making it a community process proceed how the results demanded, so we all dedicated ourselves to doing so in a respectful manner. But you're right: for 40% of us, this decision really sucks.

Invite the the criticism and frustration - who knows, maybe a design idea or two will come out of it and result in some good outcomes - but please don't talk down to us. There are people on the losing side of the argument with passionate feelings who aren't going to be happy with the result. Don't shut that down, it will only serve to further alienate them.

This is a great point. I do encourage communications, and passionate communications. The point I was hoping to make was that there are constructive ways to express one's feelings, as you've suggested, and there are destructive ways. My goal was to encourage people to participate in the former, but not the latter.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

-crp

[MidnightLich]

But the argument is (at least my argument) is that it's now been admitted that Metamorphosis will not be necessarily retaining the best of 2E. At least parts of that may be gone for months or more likely years. That's not good.

I sure hope that isn't what I said. A lot of research and time was spent choosing the cards that went into this expansion. There were a lot of different factors, popularity among them. It was agonizing to decide what would stay and what wouldn't. We treated it as a good thing that cards were scheduled for other homes, because it meant those cards were going to find their way to print. It's true that won't be here and now, but isn't "soon" better than "never"?

There's nothing I can say to make this not suck for those of us that didn't want the split to happen. I shouldn't have tried, and I apologize for any hurt or confusion I've caused. But we took our time and did a lot of work - especially the play testers - to make these great 1E cards and respectful of their origins.

Ultimately, we have a lot more First Edition to make. A LOT. I have plans for 1E expansions through 2025. We're going to get cool content into the game, and a lot of it will be inspired by 2E cards. It'll be worth the wait, I think.

-crp

[Boffo97]

Let me start by saying that I hope you're not reading my (what was intended to be) constructive criticism as me jumping down your throat, Charlie (and others), because it's not my intent.

I agree with Brian that some sort of article and ensuing discussion about the cards that didn't make the set will be good. I hope included in that discussion will be exactly what "soon" entails for the cards that are planned for the future. (As in, are we talking 2019? 2020? Later?)

I think if we can keep this discussion open minded on both sides and non-personal, it could be very constructive, but I worry about the fact that we've seen a "Here is our decision. It is final. We'll explain it, but we're not changing our minds no matter what." approach in the past too.

[MidnightLich]

Let me start by saying that I hope you're not reading my (what was intended to be) constructive criticism as me jumping down your throat, Charlie (and others), because it's not my intent.

Nope, we're all good.

I agree with Brian that some sort of article and ensuing discussion about the cards that didn't make the set will be good. I hope included in that discussion will be exactly what "soon" entails for the cards that are planned for the future. (As in, are we talking 2019? 2020? Later?)

I think if we can keep this discussion open minded on both sides and non-personal, it could be very constructive, but I worry about the fact that we've seen a "Here is our decision. It is final. We'll explain it, but we're not changing our minds no matter what." approach in the past too.

In terms of what is in Metamorphosis, it's pretty much impossible to make changes. But I'm very happy to have prolonged and productive discussions about what's to come. I like to think we've made great strides in communication in the First Edition world, and I want to keep at that.

-crp

[Boffo97]

Well, what I'm getting at (hypothetically) is let's say something either got left out entirely or scheduled for the year 2525 (if man is still alive), and it had a bunch of us shouting "Rabble!" repeatedly. In that event (which hopefully won't come to pass), maybe a Metamorphosis: Supplemental or something like that could be considered.

Also, something must be done about my parenthetical notes (which I write too many of).

[Maelwys]

In that event (which hopefully won't come to pass), maybe a Metamorphosis: Supplemental or something like that could be considered.

Yeah, I was starting to think the same thing... if, after the set is entirely released, there is still a list of cards that people really miss, then maybe there's a chance to take a public poll and say the top 18/27 cards (that are EASY to convert, and don't require much design or testing) could be run through and converted as a supplemental set. Nothing that will require a lot of resources, but for example if there turns out to be demand for Vorax, and he's not in the set, he's a pretty straightforward conversion. Not free (since he still requires a lot of Art time), but at least easy, and if the demand existed probably something that we could do.

[AllenGould]

But the argument is (at least my argument) is that it's now been admitted that Metamorphosis will not be necessarily retaining the best of 2E.

Which would bring us back to the problem of one person's "best of 2E" is someone else's "binder fodder"...

[Iron Prime]

Well that was a roller coaster.

While I feel bad that some people are disappointed in the decision I am personally really happy about this. I've always hated the look of 2EBC cards in a 1E game I found the rules baggage to allow their use annoying at best. The cards so far look to be faithfully converted and I'm betting that conversions will continue to sneak in here and there for years to come. Keep heart everyone!

[Boffo97]

My hope for after this is that while there technically won't be "conversions" anymore (and thus the need for finding the exact frame the original image came from will be gone), 2E will still be mined for ideas that would be good for 1E, whether the cards were originally BC or not. Haadok is a promising example here as he was a non BC 2E card.

And in the same way, 2E's designers should be looking at 1E.

And both should be looking at Tribbles, particularly being inspired to make TAS cards, but that's a different debate.

[Armus]

Well that was a roller coaster.

While I feel bad that some people are disappointed in the decision I am personally really happy about this. I've always hated the look of 2EBC cards in a 1E game I found the rules baggage to allow their use annoying at best. The cards so far look to be faithfully converted and I'm betting that conversions will continue to sneak in here and there for years to come. Keep heart everyone!

I have no doubt that Design will do their level best to give us good cards. That's never been the issue with me.

As for the overarching decision...