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 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#421196
What's the least number of personnel you can run in a deck to get a good skill ratio?

This is both a question-out-of-curiosity and a bit of a challenge, if you're up for it.

If you'd like to treat it as a challenge, here are the rules:

1. Your deck must have double the requirements to pass every wall dilemma in the game (if it were just 'meet,' your draw deck would need a lot of filler to reach 30 cards, and you'd have no redundancy for the inevitable deaths).

2. Your deck does not need to be able to meet (double) every requirement of every wall dilemma, just one set per.
E.g. Your deck does not need to be able to meet Cybernetics and 2 Law (Quality of Life) as long as it can meet an alternate requirement (such as discarding an equipment).

3. While personnel with double skills are very helpful, redundancy is also important. For this reason, your deck must also be able to pass (without doubling) the requirements for every wall dilemma in the game even if one personnel with a requirement dies.
E.g. The highest level of Geology required by a wall is 1 (Odo's "Cousin", Seismic Quake). You must have at least two Geology in your deck to double this. But if you only include Lt. D'Amato, and he dies, you're in a rut. So you must include a second personnel with Geology in your deck.

4. Downloaded personnel (including mission specialists) do not count toward your personnel total.
E.g. You run Lojur as a support personnel. He increases your OFFICER, Navigation and Transporter Skill counts by 1 each, but not your total number of personnel.

5. You may run only one copy of a given persona, i.e. all your personnel must be capable of being in play at once.

6. Your personnel must all be capable of mixing and cooperating, but not by assuming an arbitrary number of Treaty and other such cards: play the challenge as if you're building an ordinary, reasonable deck.

7. You don't need to build a complete deck, just your personnel set (with relevant downloading cards).

8. Here is a list of skill minimums to pass walls, and of walls with unusual requirements. While I have been careful, I've probably made at least one error or omission; please point any out, and use that revised set of requirements. (Don't forget you must double each of these requirements, including alternate requirements in parentheses!)

2 Anthropology
2 Archaeology
2 Astrophysics
2 Biology
1 CIVILIAN (technically 0, treat as 1 for challenge (Incentive-Based Economics))
2 Computer Skill
2 Diplomacy (3 without Law (Implication) and 3 Treachery (A Good Day to Lie))
2 ENGINEER
2 Empathy (Quantum Incursions)
2 Exobiology
1 Geology
0 Honor (1 without Acquisition and 2 Greed (Attractive Antiquities) and Law (Cardassian Processing))
1 Leadership (3 without Admiral, General, or Maje (Dignitaries and Witnesses))
3 MEDICAL (1 with Nurse (Medical Crisis))
2 Navigation
3 OFFICER (with STRENGTH>5 (Maglock))
1 Physics
3 SCIENCE
2 SECURITY
1 Stellar Cartography
1 Transporter Skill
2 Treachery (3 without 3 Diplomacy (A Good Day to Lie))
1 V.I.P. (technically 0, treat as 1 (The New Resistance))
1 Youth (I Hate You, Incentive-Based Economics)
A Miner Confrontation
Faux Pas
In the Pale Moonlight
Invidium Leak
Matriarchal Society
Oops!
Rock People
Stand-Off
The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey

I've left off dilemmas that can be solved with equipment. This challenge only checks personnel.

9. This challenge, and the foregoing list, is inspired by and drawn from Zefno's very helpful Skills to Pass Dilemmas (http://www.boavon.plus.com/walls.pdf).

Thanks to any who play my challenge. I'll submit my own attempt at some point.
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421216
Interesting question. I had created a 'really tiny solver deck' in 2015. It doesn't meet all your criteria, but I figured I'd share it here:

https://www.trekcc.org/1e/decklists/ind ... ckID=12501

It doesn't hit the Empathy (0) or Archaeology (1) requiremen, but I think it covers the rest.

There are 15 people in the deck, which include 2 mission specialists. 11 cards get downloaded out of the deck during the seed phase, leaving 19 cards of which 7 will be your opening hand leaving 12 in your draw deck after you draw your opening hand.

- James M
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421223
This is a good group of 10 for your matrix, All [1E-AU], [Fed] or [NA].

I've played a pretty similar group of 11 (plus AMS, ASP downloads) on a Space-Time Portal drop... rest of deck was Beyond the Subatomic, I.S.S. Enterprise was seeded for return to hand, Admiral Riker for extra ship, etc. Gotta watch out for report with crew blocking, NOT a tournament deck, but super fun and fast when it works.
Attachments:
10pers-spacetime.png
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421225
Armus wrote:How does that group get past The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey? That card is popular these days I hear...
That sounds like a MEDICAL-related dilemma.

But I did miss that from the matrix.

Also for a comprehensive modern matrix you'd want to carefully look at areas where redundancy is needed.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421227
Timo wrote:
Armus wrote:How does that group get past The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey? That card is popular these days I hear...
That sounds like a MEDICAL-related dilemma.

But I did miss that from the matrix.

Also for a comprehensive modern matrix you'd want to carefully look at areas where redundancy is needed.
Does that work? It specifies Medical classification.
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421228
Armus wrote:Does that work? It specifies Medical classification.
I don't see why not? Requiring MEDICAL-classification is requiring MEDICAL. Classifications are still skills, they are not like specific/qualified references to card titles.

But I don't know though, I've never done it.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#421235
That's a cool deck, Orbin, thanks. Preventing opponent downloads while downloading a bunch yourself is nasty. I like the idea of using the wormholes to thin the deck. Timo, cool; I had my eye on a few of those personnel, too! Yeah, Dr. McCoy is sweet. What did you mean by looking at areas where redundancy is needed? Some skills can probably be filtered much better than others, though I figured one should have redundancy for everything because there are so many random stops and kills. Also (I'm a little newbish), what did you mean by seeding 'for return to hand'?
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
#421236
Armus wrote:
Timo wrote:
Armus wrote:How does that group get past The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey? That card is popular these days I hear...
That sounds like a MEDICAL-related dilemma.

But I did miss that from the matrix.

Also for a comprehensive modern matrix you'd want to carefully look at areas where redundancy is needed.
Does that work? It specifies Medical classification.
it is still medical related
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421250
TheHumanHydra wrote:What did you mean by looking at areas where redundancy is needed? Some skills can probably be filtered much better than others, though I figured one should have redundancy for everything because there are so many random stops and kills.
Exactly, some filter combos are more common. A classic one is Unscientific Method + Scientific Method, so you really need 4 SCIENCE. Navigation and MEDICAL have some classic filters too. I'm not as familiar with what the current ones might be.

I'd also include dial-a-skill with decks like that for this reason.
Harrad-Sar for Vina
Suna for Reflection Therapy
TheHumanHydra wrote:Also (I'm a little newbish), what did you mean by seeding 'for return to hand'?
The way that deck worked, the draw deck was only the 11 personnel and ~15 Beyond The Subatomic. A ship would likely get discarded so you needed to get in the hand another way.
- Seed Halkan Council + I.S.S. Enterprise
- Return ISS to hand with a Space-Time Portal, or Spacedoor
(Spacedoor requires you move the ISS to an outpost and return to hand on second turn, the only advantage being not seeding an extra STP makes it less obvious what you're planning to do.)
- By the second turn I've usually drawn 10 personnel, so I report everyone with crew using Space-Time Portal. (I downloaded with Temporal Micro-Wormhole again to make it less expected.)

There are two big counters to this deck:
- Temporal Micro-Wormhole which likely will be used up quickly to get off-affiliated Bariel, McCoy, or Archer, or Telek in Romulan decks, so you might have to wait.
- It's Only A Game limits report with crew to 4, making this a local meta or casual play OTF deck. With Refs you just have to start with half your crew --- which isn't so bad. You can half your crew based on which mission first: planet or space.


Basically: If you seed 2 STP and the ISS Enterprise, it is obvious what you are planning to do. Opponents will have TMW ready. But if you seed no STP and your deck apparently looks like a focused Empire/Fed deck then they might not be ready.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#421266
Thanks for the explanation, Timo. Yeah, it would be interesting to go through common filters. Maybe I'll have a go at it at some point, but it sounds like a lot of work!
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#421283
All right, here's my attempt to meet my challenge. Remember, I'm doubling the requirements for each wall. However, there are a lot of padded skills that lead me to believe someone might be able to do better.

Agent Garak Download with Defend Homeworld from Saavik
Admiral Riker Download with Going to the Top
Alyssa Ogawa (U) Download with Assign Mission Specialists
Benjamin Sisko (Chain of Command)
Beverly
Captain Spock (38 R+)
Commodore Decker
Dr. McCoy (49 VP) Download with Starship Enterprise from Admiral Riker
First Officer Spock
Jadzia Dax
Jake Sisko (Emissary) Download with Benjamin Sisko
Lt. (j.g.) Picard Download with Assign Support Personnel
Lwaxana Troi (20th Anniversary)
Saavik Download with U.S.S. Enterprise-A from Reunite Legends
Altovar (Emissary)
Ezri Download with I'm a Doctor, Not a Bricklayer from Dr. McCoy
Jonathan Archer (Cold Front)
McKay Download with Assign Mission Specialists
Mr. Sisko (71 V) Download with Going to the Top
Odo (The Trouble with Tribbles) Download with Lwaxana Troi
Sarin
Arik Soong
Dr. Telek R'Mor Download with Temporal Micro-Wormhole
Daniels

4 Anthropology
4 Archaeology
4 Astrophysics
7 Biology
4 CIVILIAN
4 Computer Skill
1 Cybernetics
7 Diplomacy
4 Empathy (Quantum Incursions)
6 ENGINEER
6 Exobiology
2 Geology
9 Honor
1 Law
8 Leadership
7 MEDICAL
2 Music
7 Navigation
6 OFFICER
2 Physics
8 SCIENCE
7 SECURITY
3 Stellar Cartography
2 Transporter Skill
5 Treachery
2 V.I.P.
2 Youth
Yes A Miner Confrontation
Yes Faux Pas
Yes In the Pale Moonlight
Yes Invidium Leak
Yes Matriarchal Society
Yes Oops!
Yes Rock People
Yes Stand-Off
Yes The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey

https://www.trekcc.org/1e/decklists/ind ... ckID=18036

So there are 24 personnel, half of which can be downloaded, for a golf score of 12. The deck seeds AMS, ASP, TMW, and Reunite Legends, among other things.

However, I'm not sure whether playing such a deck would really be advisable, as it has no free plays beyond the downloads.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421301
TheHumanHydra wrote:All right, here's my attempt to meet my challenge. Remember, I'm doubling the requirements for each wall. However, there are a lot of padded skills that lead me to believe someone might be able to do better.

Agent Garak Download with Defend Homeworld from Saavik
Admiral Riker Download with Going to the Top
Alyssa Ogawa (U) Download with Assign Mission Specialists
Benjamin Sisko (Chain of Command)
Beverly
Captain Spock (38 R+)
Commodore Decker
Dr. McCoy (49 VP) Download with Starship Enterprise from Admiral Riker
First Officer Spock
Jadzia Dax
Jake Sisko (Emissary) Download with Benjamin Sisko
Lt. (j.g.) Picard Download with Assign Support Personnel
Lwaxana Troi (20th Anniversary)
Saavik Download with U.S.S. Enterprise-A from Reunite Legends
Altovar (Emissary)
Ezri Download with I'm a Doctor, Not a Bricklayer from Dr. McCoy
Jonathan Archer (Cold Front)
McKay Download with Assign Mission Specialists
Mr. Sisko (71 V) Download with Going to the Top
Odo (The Trouble with Tribbles) Download with Lwaxana Troi
Sarin
Arik Soong
Dr. Telek R'Mor Download with Temporal Micro-Wormhole
Daniels

4 Anthropology
4 Archaeology
4 Astrophysics
7 Biology
4 CIVILIAN
4 Computer Skill
1 Cybernetics
7 Diplomacy
4 Empathy (Quantum Incursions)
6 ENGINEER
6 Exobiology
2 Geology
9 Honor
1 Law
8 Leadership
7 MEDICAL
2 Music
7 Navigation
6 OFFICER
2 Physics
8 SCIENCE
7 SECURITY
3 Stellar Cartography
2 Transporter Skill
5 Treachery
2 V.I.P.
2 Youth
Yes A Miner Confrontation
Yes Faux Pas
Yes In the Pale Moonlight
Yes Invidium Leak
Yes Matriarchal Society
Yes Oops!
Yes Rock People
Yes Stand-Off
Yes The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey

https://www.trekcc.org/1e/decklists/ind ... ckID=18035

So there are 24 personnel, half of which can be downloaded, for a golf score of 12. The deck seeds AMS, ASP, TMW, and Reunite Legends, among other things.

However, I'm not sure whether playing such a deck would really be advisable, as it has no free plays beyond the downloads.
Executive Authorization?
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#421318
Armus wrote: Executive Authorization?
For this challenge, I wanted to only look at personnel, so dilemmas that can be solved with equipment were ignored. You're right that if this were a real deck I'd have to run more PADDs than I'd like.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#421320
TheHumanHydra wrote:
Armus wrote: Executive Authorization?
For this challenge, I wanted to only look at personnel, so dilemmas that can be solved with equipment were ignored. You're right that if this were a real deck I'd have to run more PADDs than I'd like.
Jake Sisko could download an Engineering PADD so thats useful.
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