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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421457
LORE wrote:
Armus wrote:Just to zoom in on this, I'm not drawing conclusions as to good or bad, but a [Rom] Romulan Minefield deck could get nasty even if there weren't any draws involved.

Minefield + Cytherians + Raptor sniping + a well-built Battle Bridge Side Deck = KABOOM.

That's really good even if I have to use card plays and don't get any draws.
I understand that we don't want to fall into a paranoid state where anybody can scream foul the moment they lose to something they don't like. But Kevin, who's an excellent interactive player, is voicing a concern. When someone who could potentially obliterate a field and hand out NPE's like candy is bringing an issue up, I don't think we should dismissively sweep it under the rug. I know my warning bells are going off, and I hope the 1E team has them firing off too. They have been great about nipping nonsense like this in the bud over the past few months, and I am hopeful this will catch someone's eye as well.

It doesn't seem like anyone in this thread thinks the link between IDIC and Romulan Minefield shouldn't be severed. So.... let's take care of it before it gets too far out of hand. I shouldn't need to reanimate TNG Romulan PNZ battle and incorporate IDIC + Minefields to get erratas attention that this needs to get looked at, just as we shouldn't need too much more data to know it is a problem. Brian won with it using Vulcans. Seems fair, given he was using it how design seems to have intended it be used. This weekend, Jon won a Regional with it in an all Romulan deck and only gave up one mission over 3 games. Isn't that enough of a reason to at least add it to the watch list?

I fail to see how anything I said led you to the conclusion that I wanted to 'dismissively sweep it under the rug'.

To the contrary, I share the concern and definitely agree that it bears watching, especially the [Vul] -less IDIC: Power [Rom] version of this build.

But what we don't know at this point is whether or not it's a problem solved by errata, a meta shift, or something else. Let's see what develops.

That said, just because I'm at Yellow Alert and not Red Alert doesn't mean I disagree with you.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#421463
When I first saw Romulan Minefield, my first thoughts were.....man that might be super cool in a TNG Always a Chess Game deck with PNZ missions Covert Installation, Investigate Destruction, Patrol Neutral Zone, and Iconia Investigation to take advantage of the free plays between [Rom] missions since they would all be side by side in the same region. But how viable are PNZ decks nowadays?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421464
Tyberius_Deangelo wrote:When I first saw Romulan Minefield, my first thoughts were.....man that might be super cool in a TNG Always a Chess Game deck with PNZ missions Covert Installation, Investigate Destruction, Patrol Neutral Zone, and Iconia Investigation to take advantage of the free plays between [Rom] missions since they would all be side by side in the same region. But how viable are PNZ decks nowadays?
Romulan mines all over the Neutral Zone. There's no way that's allowed under the treaty of Algeron. And when you throw in the Vulcan influence, there's only one conclusion:

"I'm sorry Spock. I'm not finished violating Neutral Zone Treaty"

:shock: IT'S ALL SYBOK'S FAULT!!! :shock:

:shifty: :P
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By bhosp
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
#421470
Armus wrote: Romulan mines all over the Neutral Zone.
It’s always a Stratego game with the Romulans.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#421472
bhosp wrote:
Armus wrote: Romulan mines all over the Neutral Zone.
It’s always a Stratego game with the Romulans.
Move, countermove. Guile and 3's randomly bumping into exactly the right square.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#421473
I wanted to play a minefield deck for the regional, but didn't have time to build one. I was thrilled to see Jon playing one, even though that meant I was severely handcuffed.

My suggestion would be to change the gametext to:
Plays adjacent to a [Rom] mission (for free if between [Rom] missions). Creates a location (span 2). Passing non- [Rom] ships must stop here for rest of turn or incur damage.
I think this is lore-friendly and balanced. The counter is simply not to use [Rom] missions.
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#421476
Armus wrote:Romulan mines all over the Neutral Zone.
Romulan mines are STILL everywhere...
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#421478
Well I was hoping we could get Klingon mines ala DS9 but seems that this whole issue might temper my hopes farther than Q snapping his fingers.

As someone who went up against Brian's deck, I could see a lot of ways to get around the wormholes but then again Quantum Slipstream Drive in my deck was pretty hand for it.

What bothers me mostly is that for the longest time I have trained myself to avoid any Kevin/Amanda cards in my deck. But now suddenly there is a large number of cards that are really unfun to run into (Bearskins, Mines, Timepod Ring) but the only real way to neutralize any of them is to expect myself to lose points in doing that. I don't find that particularly fun when it means having to push bonus points into decks that sometimes have a hard time putting them in.

I felt the card drawing was more of an issue. Especially when it can be played for free. [22] has so many easy ways to draw cards while leaving other eras or decks having far less card drawing abilities.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#421491
BCSWowbagger wrote:
bhosp wrote:
Armus wrote: Romulan mines all over the Neutral Zone.
It’s always a Stratego game with the Romulans.
Move, countermove. Guile and 3's randomly bumping into exactly the right square.
Is that NeuStratego? My version ranks from 1-9 with 8s being the ones that can disarm bombs. But my version dates to the late 1980s and I know they changed it to rank 10-1 or 10-2 or something at some point.
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Ambassador
By Comicbookhero (Michael Moskop)
 - Ambassador
 -  
#421507
We do need some blue text on when the damage from the minefield occurs. Does the ship complete the "passing-by" and is then damaged? I ruled on Saturday that the move happens and then the damage is applied. (Jon told me to post this so he would remember to make an official ruling on it.)
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By bhosp
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
#421514
I’d say it should probably be downgraded from “damaged” to [Flip], but then it would be totally safe for non [Rom] to use as long as your opponent doesn’t have a BBSD, so you’d need more words to make it Damage “your” non [Rom] ships but only [Flip] your opponent’s non [Rom] ships...

Since James brought up Subspace Warp Rift:

Am I misunderstanding Subspace Warp Rift? Does it mean you have to stop at the mission for the whole turn or get damaged? I thought you just had to not “fly by”, but then you could leave. (Have I been misunderstanding how Hail works too all this time?)

And also, the more I think about it, this is much more effective disruption than SSWR (against non [Rom], obviously), because it creates a new location (so it effectively makes even [Rom] ships passing it Range-2 that turn). But even if the location it created was Span 0, it would still be more annoying than SSWR, because I can at least move to (and attempt or whatever) the mission SSWR is on without getting damaged, no matter what side my ship starts on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#421530
Fun story about this card:

Johnny (jjh) used it against me in our last 1E game; he played it between the last two missions on the spaceline as my ship with Cytherians on it approached. I flew past (because I had to) and was damaged. Note: this was my only ship with most of my crew on it. I then flew back across it, destroying my ship, to trigger Federation Flagship: Recovered and get a new ship and save the crew.

That was fun.

-crp
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First Edition Art Manager
By jjh (Johnny Holeva)
 - First Edition Art Manager
 -  
#421561
MidnightLich wrote:Fun story about this card:

Johnny (jjh) used it against me in our last 1E game; he played it between the last two missions on the spaceline as my ship with Cytherians on it approached. I flew past (because I had to) and was damaged. Note: this was my only ship with most of my crew on it. I then flew back across it, destroying my ship, to trigger Federation Flagship: Recovered and get a new ship and save the crew.

That was fun.

-crp
No, that sucked!! ;)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#421564
bhosp wrote:Am I misunderstanding Subspace Warp Rift? Does it mean you have to stop at the mission for the whole turn or get damaged? I thought you just had to not “fly by”, but then you could leave. (Have I been misunderstanding how Hail works too all this time?)
Hail prevents you from moving for the rest of the turn. (See its Glossary entry.) So maybe? Subspace Warp Rift's Glossary entry implies the same, but not all that clearly. I'm not sure what the point would be, though, if you could just stop for a sec then fly right on, except for some weird edge cases involving The Nexus and such.

Either way, it is a case of bad PAQ-era wording.
 
By HoodieDM
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#421583
MidnightLich wrote:Thanks for bringing this to our attention. As the acting First Edition Brand Manager, I have instructed the 1E Errata Team to take a look at these cards and the decks that are doing well with them. We will be keeping an eye on Romulan Minefield and IDIC: Power of the High Command as well, to ensure the play environment remains healthy and competitive.

However, it's important to note that these decks have been in the meta for a total of nine (9) days at this point. We don't want to act too hastily before the meta has a chance to adapt (assuming there is a reasonable path to do so). At the same time, we aren't going to let this go on so long that it warps the game and frustrates players indefinitely.

So right now, we'll be keeping an eye on this. We encourage you to discuss options, strategies, and share your thoughts and opinions. We will be reading and listening and will move once there is a clear and compelling case for doing so.

-crp
:thumbsup:

Charlie is listening and on top of things, thank you sir!

~D
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