[phaserihardlyknowher]

Reading through the Romulan Minefields thread I was reflecting on design and I caught this post on bringing more players in.

I don't want to dredge up a bunch of stuff on erratas or card design, but I'm curious if there's been any thought on reviving block, or just playing block more often. I haven't played anything but casually for years, but I think block would be a great way to reduce complexity (and card knowledge) required. It would also add some variety to play. It's not like we need to be exclusively block or anything, but I'd really like to see some serious block play.

Is it just a case of missing a few key cards, or is there a larger structural issue? Are there cards that could be *only* for block play to avoid any issues?

It seems I didn't read far enough. I'm excited to see some block, but you can probably disregard this.

[BCSWowbagger]

Two of the problems Block has faced are (1) rapidly increasing card complexity in the "current" block pool and (2) near-total Design indifference to Block; sets are built primarily for Complete, and Block is an afterthought at best, which leads to a dysfunctional Block environment.

(I say this as a part of the problem: the set I worked on, Cold Front, prompted a tester to ask me, "So are we just dropping the Block pretense altogether?" and I was very much a part of causing that reaction.)

(But that's okay, because nobody plays Block, so nobody notices the dysfunctions.)

Coming of Age shows that Design indifference to Block is thawing. There's also a strong focus in... *checks* oh, I'm not allowed to talk about that yet. But there's good stuff happening on the Block front.

On the other hand, although there's been definite progress toward paying serious attention to Block, I still don't think there's a clear vision within Design as to what Block ought to be going forward and how it will avoid falling into the trap of increasing complexity. I don't know what the answer to that is, but, every time I've put my mind to it, I've come up with something that looks broadly similar to 2E's Excelsior Format.

[phaserihardlyknowher]

On the other hand, although there's been definite progress toward paying serious attention to Block, I still don't think there's a clear vision within Design as to what Block ought to be going forward and how it will avoid falling into the trap of increasing complexity. I don't know what the answer to that is, but, every time I've put my mind to it, I've come up with something that looks broadly similar to 2E's Excelsior Format.

In a rotation system the complexity issue is resolved by rotating out cards. That keeps the pool small enough to avoid unexpected interactions. The only possible analogue I can think of for Block is to have cards that can only be used in the block. So you've got a card that will work in TNG block, but not in complete. I guess that's somewhat similar to Excelsior, but perhaps more difficult long term.

Of course, that adds the challenge of creating cards that work well with both complete and the specialized block cards. I don't really have the answers, but I am excited to see what happens with TNG.

[LORE]

Our hope is that the remastered TNG Block will be a launching point for new and returning players. The total card pool will include the following sets:

All Homefront expansions
The Next Generation
The Next Generation: Supplemental
Engage
The Sky's the Limit
Warp Pack: Emissary
Coming of Age

Collectively, that is a card pool of roughly 500 cards. It should be enough to make some interesting designs - from Klingon battle to Ferengi with a splash of Scientific Diplomacy - without becoming too daunting. And the playtesters did an excellent job on the Coming of Age starters, as these are highly competitive amongst themselves and playable right out of the box. If you are looking to get back into the game with a friend, these starters are the absolute best product we have to offer currently.

[BCSWowbagger]

In a rotation system the complexity issue is resolved by rotating out cards. That keeps the pool small enough to avoid unexpected interactions.

Block's done that, but its rotations have consistently replaced simple cards with more complex ones. Simple Alpha Quadrant affiliations that seeded Outposts (and maybe Headquarters) gave way to Alpha Quadrant Nors, then Mirror Quadrant (often with Nors), then Time Locations. Draw engines went from Continuing Mission to Study Divergent History. Block became a weird, complicated place where you'd never want to have a new player.

The TNG Remastered Block LORE mentions is a tremendous step forward, and if it ends up an eternal format (without significant rotation) I think it would still be a huge improvement on ENT Block. (And I say that as one of roughly five people to play in a sanctioned ENT Block tournament.)

[HoodieDM]

Me personally, I don't think Block should be a rotating format. I think Block should be a designed Limited Format that allows beginners and novices to play a fun game. I think this dubbed "TNG Block" should be the exact thing that Block needs to be. But it shouldn't reference only TNG. There needs to be sets like Homefront that emerge as just a stationary set that stays in a Block Format. So TNG Homefront is what it should be called. Then we get a DS9 Homefront. Then eventually a ENT Homefront (once all the stuffs been out for a year plus and all the shit figured out). And lastly a TOS Homefront once all 3 sets are out and again another 6-12 months pass by. And then whatever TMP/DQ sets we get in the future. I think each "series set" could be complete with about 150-250 cards. Just depends on the amount of affiliations and such involved. And what's introduced in the TNG Homefront set, like dilemmas, missions, facilities, etc that can be shared amongst all the other series sets, would still be staples that all decks can use so you don't need to repeat that.

I think a total of 700-1000 cards is pretty friendly in a limited format that could be titled "Block" but more or less based on a finite set of cards that DO NOT rotate. Why should someone who only wants to play TNG Feds or DS9 Cardassian Nors or ENT Romulans or whatever, be "punished" and forced to play something else in a fun/simple format because their cards are "rotated out".

I get the initial premise of Block and I was all for it, but again, after 4+ years we need to adapt to what folks really want. Not necessarily a strict beginners format, but just a simpler form of the game without all the hodge podge of what even OTF Complete offers where you have Romulan Minefields running around, or Capture focus or Borg assimilation decks that newer folks or just the folks who want quick games to go.

~D

[Professor Scott]

Me personally, I don't think Block should be a rotating format. I think Block should be a designed Limited Format that allows beginners and novices to play a fun game. I think this dubbed "TNG Block" should be the exact thing that Block needs to be. But it shouldn't reference only TNG. There needs to be sets like Homefront that emerge as just a stationary set that stays in a Block Format. So TNG Homefront is what it should be called. Then we get a DS9 Homefront. Then eventually a ENT Homefront (once all the stuffs been out for a year plus and all the shit figured out). And lastly a TOS Homefront once all 3 sets are out and again another 6-12 months pass by. And then whatever TMP/DQ sets we get in the future. I think each "series set" could be complete with about 150-250 cards. Just depends on the amount of affiliations and such involved. And what's introduced in the TNG Homefront set, like dilemmas, missions, facilities, etc that can be shared amongst all the other series sets, would still be staples that all decks can use so you don't need to repeat that.

I think a total of 700-1000 cards is pretty friendly in a limited format that could be titled "Block" but more or less based on a finite set of cards that DO NOT rotate. Why should someone who only wants to play TNG Feds or DS9 Cardassian Nors or ENT Romulans or whatever, be "punished" and forced to play something else in a fun/simple format because their cards are "rotated out".

I get the initial premise of Block and I was all for it, but again, after 4+ years we need to adapt to what folks really want. Not necessarily a strict beginners format, but just a simpler form of the game without all the hodge podge of what even OTF Complete offers where you have Romulan Minefields running around, or Capture focus or Borg assimilation decks that newer folks or just the folks who want quick games to go.

~D

I think we have a real opportunity to redefine "Block" play. I think that most card games have followed Magic The Gathering's Block style. Keep in mind that they created this format as a way to keep a constant revenue $tream.... "Oh sorry you can't play your 9th edition Wild Growth, now you have to buy a 10th Edition Wild Growth"....etc. Since we are not dealing with a constant need to replace cards with a new version in order to maintain the financial bottom line, we can create a more stable Block format that doesn't necessarily completely change every 2 years like in the case of MTG.

I like HoodieDM's idea of blocks themed after the show/era that are depicted in the cards. We already have, for instance, Ready Room Door in different versions that fit nicely into these blocks. That's not to say that you MUST use the Block related picture, but you get the idea. This also allows for smaller boutique style sets to be created exclusively for each block that add to the otherwise stagnant card pool. There would be no reason to rotate out cards this way either.

If a player decides that they are bored with the deck they have, they can try another faction in the same block and gain a broader their understanding of the block.

The only trouble I see would be with the . I have not played this faction personally but I thought this faction might suffer some as it's affiliation seems to cross multiple blocks, and I am not sure whether it works well within any one block. On the flip side, as a non-Borg player, not having to fear sitting across from one works for me too.

Just my

[AllenGould]

Keep in mind that they created this format as a way to keep a constant revenue $tream.... "Oh sorry you can't play your 9th edition Wild Growth, now you have to buy a 10th Edition Wild Growth"....etc.

That's incorrect - if a card is legal in a Magic format, *any* printing is legal. Llanowar Elves was reprinted in this year's Core set, so you can play any version of it, all the way back to Alpha if you want.

[Professor Scott]

Keep in mind that they created this format as a way to keep a constant revenue $tream.... "Oh sorry you can't play your 9th edition Wild Growth, now you have to buy a 10th Edition Wild Growth"....etc.

That's incorrect - if a card is legal in a Magic format, *any* printing is legal. Llanowar Elves was reprinted in this year's Core set, so you can play any version of it, all the way back to Alpha if you want.

Actually you are right, I am mis-remembering, but each time a new base set came out you would rotate a base set out of standard, so every 2 years you had a completely new pool of cards and any cards not reprinted were no longer playable in the block. The point I was trying to make is that we don't need to reinvent the block every 2 years.

[AllenGould]

Actually you are right, I am mis-remembering, but each time a new base set came out you would rotate a base set out of standard, so every 2 years you had a completely new pool of cards and any cards not reprinted were no longer playable in the block. The point I was trying to make is that we don't need to reinvent the block every 2 years.

Mind, those cards are still playable in other formats, many of which are just as popular as Standard. The main reason the "eternal" formats aren't as popular is simply that getting your hands on those decades-old cards is expensive as heck. (As in, white-border Moxes start at around $2500. EACH.)

Which brings up the reason why rotation is a good thing - it creates a level playing field for new players to get on the treadmill. You want to start playing Magic? You don't need to find those multi-thousand dollar moxes that haven't been printed since the 90s. You don't need stuff from the 2000s. You only need to care about stuff printed in the last 24 months or so*, and know that no-one else has access to tech that you don't.

It also acts as setup for the older formats - sure, your cards from 2016 will rotate out this year... in Standard. They're still legal in Modern and Commander and a host of other formats, so your collection is never "worthless".**

From a design view, having cards fall off also continually reopens space without having to print "magic bullets" or straight-up invalidate old cards***. Taking your Wild Growth as an example: having it not in Standard meant they could do a bunch of variations without it either being a straight up "you killed Wild Growth", or more importantly it becoming "binder fodder" because Wild Growth is straight up better. (Compare with how any new Trek set promptly turns into comparing to existing cards).

In addition, having a locked-down pool means that it *will* become solved, which makes it useless for bringing in new players, as they'll either be handed The Good Deck or get stomped by it by folks who have had years to finetune.

* In practice, you're only going to be buying this year's cards (for sealed/draft), and then buying singles to get your deck, because Magic is at the point where it's flat out cheaper to buy a la carte than to crack packs. It's really weird that way.

** Unless you're of the opinion that cardboard is worth tons of money, in which case you're playing a completely different game of Stock Market CCG.

*** It can still do that in the eternal formats, but since those are starting with Moxes and Time Walks and other massively over-the-curve cards, Wizards seems to just let those formats be Wild West wastelands of turn 1 kills.

[Professor Scott]

Which brings up the reason why rotation is a good thing - it creates a level playing field for new players to get on the treadmill. You want to start playing Magic? You don't need to find those multi-thousand dollar moxes that haven't been printed since the 90s. You don't need stuff from the 2000s. You only need to care about stuff printed in the last 24 months or so*, and know that no-one else has access to tech that you don't.

True, but unlike in MTG, all players literally have access to all cards here on the site. That is one thing that made deck building harder for me initially. Normally I build decks with what I had or could trade for, now I no longer have these restrictions so my card choice is more significant.

In addition, having a locked-down pool means that it *will* become solved, which makes it useless for bringing in new players, as they'll either be handed The Good Deck or get stomped by it by folks who have had years to finetune.

This is a valid argument for which I have no defense. I think we need some combination of static and fluid cards but how to rotate in and out cards is a struggle. I remember an interesting series of tournaments in Decipher's Star Wars CCG. We had Bespin and Beyond games where you couldn't use the older tech, and you had to try to reinvent the wheel to duplicate the effects of some of the older combos with new combos. It was quite inventive.

[BCSWowbagger]

The only trouble I see would be with the . I have not played this faction personally but I thought this faction might suffer some as it's affiliation seems to cross multiple blocks, and I am not sure whether it works well within any one block. On the flip side, as a non-Borg player, not having to fear sitting across from one works for me too.

Gonna make a bold prediction here: will never be in Block. Too many weird rules and complications. Way more than any other affiliation or faction.

Which brings up the reason why rotation is a good thing - it creates a level playing field for new players to get on the treadmill. You want to start playing Magic? You don't need to find those multi-thousand dollar moxes that haven't been printed since the 90s. You don't need stuff from the 2000s. You only need to care about stuff printed in the last 24 months or so*, and know that no-one else has access to tech that you don't.

This strikes me as a pretty good argument for why an eternal limited format would work really well for our game. All the cards are free, and the cards that are in widest circulation are (weirdly) our earliest, from WB Premiere.

From a design view, having cards fall off also continually reopens space without having to print "magic bullets" or straight-up invalidate old cards***.... In addition, having a locked-down pool means that it *will* become solved, which makes it useless for bringing in new players, as they'll either be handed The Good Deck or get stomped by it by folks who have had years to finetune.

I think this could be solved by very rare rotation. Wait until the format gets solved, then mix things up. Rotate the strongest 10 cards out and bring in a few different ones. (Or, if you REALLY want to mix it up, replace an affiliation!) We don't have the volume of play that Magic does, so this could take some time.

[frakkingoff]

Gonna make a bold prediction here: will never be in Block. Too many weird rules and complications. Way more than any other affiliation or faction.

I hope you're wrong.

I hope that TNG Borg are made as a new faction, and one day added in a special "TNG Borg" expansion designed to fit in with the new TNG perma-block format.

[AllenGould]

I hope that TNG Borg are made as a new faction, and one day added in a special "TNG Borg" expansion designed to fit in with the new TNG perma-block format.

Agreed, but I think it's more likely that a format without ever exists than a Block format with Borg. (And I don't expect to *ever* see a format that managed to avoid the Blue Trap.)

[Proconsul Neral]

Good disscusion, I personally hate block as it sits. Largely because most factions aren't fully playable in block.

I do wish their was a more limited card pool that allowed for newer players to get their feet wet though I am worried about the blocked being "solved" as mentioned.

The new starters are great btw.