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By robbie4boy (Robin Bielefeldt)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#432746
Hello,

So I've recently played a pair of Borg decks, each player having Federation Flagship: Recovered seeded as a hidden agenda.
Since the first [Bor] deck I played used this card very effectively (I destroyed two cubes that then reappeared) I stocked Computer Crash as a hidden agenda to counter it.

I blow up his cube, he flips over FF: Recovered, I flip over Computer Crash. What happens?

Are his personnel stuck on the card? Does he get to download a new cube once the countdown expires? Does everyone die? Do I still get the bonus points?
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#432748
FF: Recovered requires a download, and Crash says you can't play cards that requires a download. So they can't play Recovered, enjoy your points. :)
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#432749
AllenGould wrote:FF: Recovered requires a download, and Crash says you can't play cards that requires a download. So they can't play Recovered, enjoy your points. :)
But Federation Flagship: Recovered is "revealed" not "played" when it is revealed as a [HA] so the clause on Computer Crash preventing cards that require a download doesn't apply here.

What does apply is Computer Crash would prevent the download... but that is where things get weird based on timing.

(1) Opponent reveals Federation Flagship: Recovered just after you destroyed their ship. The reason they can is revealing FF:R is a valid response.

(2) As directed by FF:R the opponent then places that ship on FF:R with all cards aboard.

(3) The opponent then attempt to use FF:R's second sentence to download a different ship of the same class or identification to their matching facility or that spaceline's end.

(3a) Upon the attempted download, the Computer Crash reveal then becomes a valid response (not earlier). So the destroyed ship and crew remain on FF:R.

According to the Glossary: "an attempted download is simply aborted (and does not use up any resource)." That makes it simple, the download is negated -- but the Glossary also says: "If a hidden agenda is activated as a response to an action, all of its effects are retroactive to the start of the initiation of the action, as if the hidden agenda had already been revealed before the action was initiated. Thus, if the hidden agenda invalidates a condition for an action, the action becomes illegal."

This is where I am not sure what happens next. Because the download is a separate sentence on FF:R, I do not know if that means just the download portion is negated or the entire action of FF:R is negated. This is important because if just the download part is negated then FF:R (and the cards on it) would be destroyed and placed into the discard pile (the Borg ship would not be placed in your bonus points area). If the entire FF:R is negated then the opponent could not place their ship (and crew) on FF:R which would be the crew is discarded and the ship ends in the bonus points area.

I don't remember if there was an official green ruling on this before (there might have been). If not, there does need to be. I could be confusing 1E and 2E rules slightly here only in that in 2E you do as much as the card allows you to do (even if other parts of the card are nullified or prevented).

Anyway, this is the reason Borg players should always in a copy of Eleven of Seventeen.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#432794
frakkingoff wrote:
Jono wrote:
AllenGould wrote: Anyway, this is the reason Borg players should always in a copy of Eleven of Seventeen.
Does he still work if he's on the ship being destroyed/recovered?
Should. He hasn't specifically died at that point.
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By Mogh, Son Of Worf (Meinhard S. Rohr)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Swedish National Champion 2018
#432807
Jono wrote: "revealed" not "played"
This is one of those nonsense rules that really should be fixed - indeed I thought it was and always assumed "played" and "revealed" (or "activated" as is the term for hidden agendas) to be the same thing until a recent tournament where it came up with Kevin Uxbridge and a "revealed" not "played" event. Fortunately, Kevin Uxbridge has its own glossary entry to state that it also applies to "activated" not only "played" as written on Kevin Uxbridge.

In my eyes this is all an issue with poor Decipher wording and rules lawyering and should be fixed, letting revealed / activated / played be affected by the same things without a special glossary entry.
 
By robbie4boy (Robin Bielefeldt)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#432890
Quark is irrelevant, resistance is futile.

A ruling would be appreciated on this.

The way we played it at GenCon was that his people were stuck on the card, I didn't get the bonus points, and he couldn't download a replacement cube. The game was effectively over at that point, since he didn't have a cube to play cards on.

Thanks for all the comments.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#432943
robbie4boy wrote:Quark is irrelevant, resistance is futile.

A ruling would be appreciated on this.

The way we played it at GenCon was that his people were stuck on the card, I didn't get the bonus points, and he couldn't download a replacement cube. The game was effectively over at that point, since he didn't have a cube to play cards on.

Thanks for all the comments.
"stuck on a card" should not be a state personnel can exist in due to a download being nullified that allows only a part of a card's gametext to be executed.

I think if a ruling is issued that the glossary line "Thus, if the hidden agenda invalidates a condition for an action, the action becomes illegal." should rule. The entire FF:R reveal is now illegal, and the ship/crew go to the discard pile.
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 - First Edition Rules Master
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#432944
Takket wrote:
I think if a ruling is issued that the glossary line "Thus, if the hidden agenda invalidates a condition for an action, the action becomes illegal." should rule. The entire FF:R reveal is now illegal, and the ship/crew go to the discard pile.
I'd say the reveal should count as the "play" for such purposes. Otherwise hidden agendas get this weird bulletproof quality.
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#432949
AllenGould wrote:
Takket wrote:
I think if a ruling is issued that the glossary line "Thus, if the hidden agenda invalidates a condition for an action, the action becomes illegal." should rule. The entire FF:R reveal is now illegal, and the ship/crew go to the discard pile.
I'd say the reveal should count as the "play" for such purposes. Otherwise hidden agendas get this weird bulletproof quality.
Counting as the “play” could cause other unintended interactions on “playing” cards. I do agree that weird things can happen with [HA] cards.

However, you proposal would
(a) require a major rules change to the Glossary regarding Hidden Agenda:
Cards with the [HA] icon represent secret objectives or other clandestine strategies. When you seed or play such a card, announce it as a hidden agenda card and place it face down on the table, normally without showing it to your opponent (if downloaded or played for free, e.g., using Q the Referee, the card must be shown for verification purposes). This counts as your turn during that seed phase, or as your normal card play, as appropriate. While face down, it is not in play, its identity is concealed, and it is immune to general-use cards (e.g., Kevin Uxbridge).
You may activate a hidden agenda card by turning it face up at any time, between other actiions or as a valid response to another action (see actions – step 2: responses).
Activating a hidden agenda does not suspend play. (A seeded hidden agenda may not be activated until after the play phase begins.) This immediately activates the card’s game text. If there are any conditions specified by the card, you must meet them at this time (if you cannot, you must immediately turn the card face down again). Once activated, the card remains face up.
(b) require playtesters to test out that rule to make sure it doesn’t pose a problem (and we know playtesters already have their hands full with new cards and errata. Revising such an important rule like the [HA] rule would require a lot of testing).

Remember, it’s 1E where weird stuff happens.
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#432950
Takket wrote:
robbie4boy wrote:Quark is irrelevant, resistance is futile.

A ruling would be appreciated on this.

The way we played it at GenCon was that his people were stuck on the card, I didn't get the bonus points, and he couldn't download a replacement cube. The game was effectively over at that point, since he didn't have a cube to play cards on.

Thanks for all the comments.
"stuck on a card" should not be a state personnel can exist in due to a download being nullified that allows only a part of a card's gametext to be executed.

I think if a ruling is issued that the glossary line "Thus, if the hidden agenda invalidates a condition for an action, the action becomes illegal." should rule. The entire FF:R reveal is now illegal, and the ship/crew go to the discard pile.
I agree “stuck on a card” should not be a “thing” — but we don’t have a rule about that in 1E. Second edition says you carry out as much of the card as you can when something prevents you from doing certain things.

Also, if the entire FF:R becomes illegal then Borg ship would not go to the discard pile but the opponent’s point box area for destroying it ... but that wouldn’t be the case if we used the above 2E rule of doing as much as you can.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#432952
How about we just make the destruction of the Borg Cube illegal and game state reverts to status quo?

Talk about your all-time backfires... :P
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#432958
Yeah I don't think there has been any explicit ruling on "do as much as you can" vs. "if you can't do everything, don't do anything." I know some of the rules follow the latter principle (for example, you can't download a scout ship with Scout Encounter if you can't download one or two universals aboard).

I think the best solution might be errata to Federation Flagship: Recovered. If FF:R triggers on your ship "being destroyed" (like Escape Pod and Emergency Evacuation), then you can relocate the crew directly from ship to ship and can avoid putting any cards on the Incident whatsoever. In that case Computer Crash means that everyone dies.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#432962
Jono wrote:(b) require playtesters to test out that rule to make sure it doesn’t pose a problem (and we know playtesters already have their hands full with new cards and errata. Revising such an important rule like the [HA] rule would require a lot of testing). Remember, it’s 1E where weird stuff happens.
This is weird enough that (if I were Charlie) I'd probably just have Rules query Testers and the community for possible weird combos, then test it themselves, internal to Rules. Playtesting is well-equipped to test that new cards conform to intended specifications without creating unintended interactions with other cards. Playtesting is not well-equipped to research, identify, and mitigate complex hypothetical interactions between cards that already exist based on minor alterations in rules text. (That's... actually pretty much the whole job description for Rules.) There are rules changes I would send to playtesting, like, "Hey, we want to make missions stealable once per game; how's that work?" But this proposed change to [HA] isn't one of them.

...anyway, since as far as I know nobody's talking about making this change to [HA] right now (and I have too much of a headache to think through whether it'd be a good idea -- probably? I dunno), this is all academic.

On the actual rules question:
Yeah I don't think there has been any explicit ruling on "do as much as you can" vs. "if you can't do everything, don't do anything." I know some of the rules follow the latter principle (for example, you can't download a scout ship with Scout Encounter if you can't download one or two universals aboard).
I can't think of any situations where 1E follows "do as much as you can." It's very much a "do or do not; there is no partial action" game. Can you think of exceptions?

But, because of my understand that 1E isn't a "do as much as you can" game, as well as my understanding of the [HA] rule is that Computer Crash reaches back to the reveal of FF:R and prevents the entire card, I would rule that nobody gets stuck on a card.
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