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 Quantum Incursions 

What action, if any, should be taken with Quantum Incursions?
Poll ended at Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:59 pm
None; this is a fun and powerful card. 24%  24%  [ 14 ]
It should be changed, but left in the game as-is until then. 26%  26%  [ 15 ]
It should be banned until a change is ready. 40%  40%  [ 23 ]
It's a terrible card and it should be banned entirely. 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 58

 Quantum Incursions 
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Post Quantum Incursions
This is a card that has generated a lot of discussion. At our recent Department of First Edition staff meeting, there was quite a bit of debate on this card. We decided to get some data, and take the temperature of the community regarding this unique card. Please vote in the poll, and if you're so inclined, share your reasons why in a reply to this post.

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
My problem with the card is it forces you to include [1E-AU] personnel in your deck. That means you must use up one of your seed slots to play personnel just to get past the doorway.

Sure, it’s only 1/3 of the time the [1E-AU] doorway comes into play, but I once hit the [1E-AU] part four times in a row when playing Borg (before the recent [1E-AU] conversions).

The [1E-AU] effect hurts Dominion, Kazan, Vidiian the most. Sure you can pop in a few Non-Aligned [1E-AU] personnel, but then that might throw off you free plays...

I’m for a small tweak to the card (though I do like the concept).

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
I totally get that people like this card, it actually is a fun concept. But: The card is absolutely terrible for competitive play. I would be in favor for allowing this in the game (however you like it), but banning it from tournaments, or tournaments above local level like Regionals and above.


Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
I voted for: "It should be changed, but left in the game as-is until then."

My thoughts are to add requirement options. 6 just isn't enough randomness.

As Jono pointed out, with 6 options, it's certainly possible to hit the same roll a few times in a row. If you have, say, 20 choices, it comes much more difficult to do so.

Sure, the existing requirements hurt some affiliations and that sucks. Sure, the requirement to use an [1E-AU] doorway is a pain.

All that is needed is to balance it out and make some of the new requirements as tough for other affiliations.

Just my opinion.

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
I voted for fixing it but leaving it in the game... two years ago.

It's a great option in theory, but the last couple of years have shown us that "fix while leaving it in the game" is a recipe for the card never being fixed. There's too many cooks and too many questions. Everyone has their own pet version of, "just do X and QI will be fine," but everyone's X is different. So it is not an easy fix, even though it looks like one, and there's no strong reason to think that the next couple of years are going to have any more success than the past couple.

Now, I think that the card should be banned and fixed. That hands clear responsibility to the Errata team, which solves the "too many cooks" problem, and it meanwhile gets the card out of the environment while the arduous, potentially lengthy process of resolving this card gets sorted out.

QI is a fun concept, and I want it back, but right now it's detrimental to the environment, and realistically there is zero chance that it is going to be fixed before tournament season.

(Full disclosure: I'm the one who suggested a ban at the meeting.)

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
BCSWowbagger wrote:
I voted for fixing it but leaving it in the game... two years ago.

It's a great option in theory, but the last couple of years have shown us that "fix while leaving it in the game" is a recipe for the card never being fixed. There's too many cooks and too many questions. Everyone has their own pet version of, "just do X and QI will be fine," but everyone's X is different. So it is not an easy fix, even though it looks like one, and there's no strong reason to think that the next couple of years are going to have any more success than the past couple.

Now, I think that the card should be banned and fixed. That hands clear responsibility to the Errata team, which solves the "too many cooks" problem, and it meanwhile gets the card out of the environment while the arduous, potentially lengthy process of resolving this card gets sorted out.

QI is a fun concept, and I want it back, but right now it's detrimental to the environment, and realistically there is zero chance that it is going to be fixed before tournament season.

(Full disclosure: I'm the one who suggested a ban at the meeting.)


I voted to ban it for now as well. James gave a good long version but here's the short version:

Last year at Regionals, Austin hits my QI and rolls Nav + 2 Sec and auto passes. I hit his QI and roll 2 Empathy requirements on 2 consecutive turns and end up losing because of it.

How many games and how many tournaments over how many years has that scenario (or a similar one) decided the outcome?

This is supposed to be a CCG, not a dice game. Sure doesn't feel that way right now... :?

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
The only reason why I voted to keep it in till it’s fixed is because it’s the only ‘wall’ that cannot he somehow tampered with by dilemma shenanigans.

I am not a fan of being able to discard an opponents dilemma or to replace your own dilemma on the fly. QI is the only ‘wall’ that cannot be manipulated like that.

By all means figure out how to add some new requirements before regionals or beginning of March but the reason why QI is used is because it’s useful due to meta.


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Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:19 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
DarkSabre wrote:
I am not a fan of being able to discard an opponents dilemma or to replace your own dilemma on the fly. QI is the only ‘wall’ that cannot be manipulated like that.


What card lets you do that?

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:25 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
Armus wrote:
DarkSabre wrote:
I am not a fan of being able to discard an opponents dilemma or to replace your own dilemma on the fly. QI is the only ‘wall’ that cannot be manipulated like that.


What card lets you do that?

Disrupted Continuum; McCoy, Terran Flagship, Guinan, Madam Guinan, Genesis Effect

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:35 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
Kaiser wrote:
Armus wrote:
DarkSabre wrote:
I am not a fan of being able to discard an opponents dilemma or to replace your own dilemma on the fly. QI is the only ‘wall’ that cannot be manipulated like that.


What card lets you do that?

Disrupted Continuum; McCoy, Terran Flagship, Guinan, Madam Guinan, Genesis Effect


Ah. I see my logical error now: I read 'or' and thought 'and'.

I have zero problem with any of those cards.

I have zero problem with a card that they don't work on (ie, QI).

I DO have a problem with an unbeatable dilemma. QI in its current form is the same kind of problem as what Austin is concerned about, just in the opposite direction.

A dilemma that can't be cheated around but can be passed on the merits is a good meta balance and what QI should aspire to be.

It's just not there in its current incarnation.

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
Armus wrote:
DarkSabre wrote:
I am not a fan of being able to discard an opponents dilemma or to replace your own dilemma on the fly. QI is the only ‘wall’ that cannot be manipulated like that.


What card lets you do that?



Disrupted Continuum & Timepod Ring

You can also throw in Beware of Q but because Oof can be dowloaded as a [Ref] Fightn Words isn't so fearful to see.

Timepod Ring is a reason why I don't run [1E-AU] dilemmas and it has severely limited walls or stopping because of that. The fact that you can keep getting out Timepod Rings as a download is what makes it ridiculous. There was always a chance someone would stock it in to play but downloading every turn it is an entirely different power level for this card.

(Just a FYI for everyone: There are 25 dilemmas that can affected by Timepod Ring - https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... =1#Results - For most people they wouldn't be played a lot however the big ones that are affected are Dial-Up, Exact Change, High Rollers (for those who want to do Casino Royal), Quantum Leap, Quantum Singularity Lifeforms, The Whale Probe, V'Ger, and Xindi Test Strike.

Lets also not forget the fact the Temporal Benefactor allows you to avoid skill filtering dilemmas designed to kill or stop certain skills to try and stop an opponent.

So yeah for now QI is a pain but its a pain thats needed in the meta that we are currently having. Unless someone is going to propose we ban [22] tech cards from decks I'm going to need QI in my decks to hopefully pray to the QR code Gods to give me the wall I need to hold back my opponent.


Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
Armus wrote:
Ah. I see my logical error now: I read 'or' and thought 'and'.

I have zero problem with any of those cards.

I have zero problem with a card that they don't work on (ie, QI).

I DO have a problem with an unbeatable dilemma. QI in its current form is the same kind of problem as what Austin is concerned about, just in the opposite direction.

A dilemma that can't be cheated around but can be passed on the merits is a good meta balance and what QI should aspire to be.

It's just not there in its current incarnation.


See QI just needs more selections to choose from and it would probably be better for it. I don't think its impassible but given that an opponent could theoretically download a timepod ring every single turn and nuke some really powerful AU cards hurts.

The issue is that we can also only seed 2 seed as dilemma cards right now. So we are short on no AU wall/stoppers THAT can actually hold off speedier skill oozing decks that are out there.

Whale Probe, Quantum Singularity Lifeforms, and Parallel Romance used to be great for decks to hamper and slow down an opponent even if it only meant one or two turns. But who wouldn't try and use Temp. Ben. and all of its wonderful helpfulness?


Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
The card is fine. It doesn't force you to include anything. Wall dilemmas force you to include skills: you're never getting past that Navigational Hazards if you didn't stock any Stellar Cartography. The random aspect of Quantum Incursions makes it not a wall. If you didn't stock the [1E-AU] or Empathy that this attempt says you need, then you try again next turn, and usually get different (therefore easier) requirements.
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I once hit the [1E-AU] part four times in a row
Simply put, welcome to probability. Randomness is an inherent part of this game (notice the shuffling?), and always has been. Failing the randomness of this card is even less punishing than with many other cards. With this, if you fail because of bad luck with the randomness, you're only stopped. Now consider Seismic Quake, or Ornaran Threat, or Close Call. Each of these is passable with the right people ... but first, those people need to survive the random selection. These are dilemmas where you might fail only because of the bad luck with the randomness ... but at the end of that failure, you're left with not only a stopped team, but also a dead personnel.

I don't even use this card anymore. I like my combos to have a reliable amount of effectiveness, and with the teams I've seen, this is frequently passed on the first attempt.

Now, I'm not saying that we absolutely cannot change it. A lot of changes have been proposed, and I find some of them reasonable. I'm saying that IMO a change is not needed. :twocents:

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:11 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
commdecker wrote:
The card is fine. It doesn't force you to include anything. Wall dilemmas force you to include skills: you're never getting past that Navigational Hazards if you didn't stock any Stellar Cartography. The random aspect of Quantum Incursions makes it not a wall. If you didn't stock the [1E-AU] or Empathy that this attempt says you need, then you try again next turn, and usually get different (therefore easier) requirements.
Quote:
I once hit the [1E-AU] part four times in a row
Simply put, welcome to probability. Randomness is an inherent part of this game (notice the shuffling?), and always has been. Failing the randomness of this card is even less punishing than with many other cards. With this, if you fail because of bad luck with the randomness, you're only stopped. Now consider Seismic Quake, or Ornaran Threat, or Close Call. Each of these is passable with the right people ... but first, those people need to survive the random selection. These are dilemmas where you might fail only because of the bad luck with the randomness ... but at the end of that failure, you're left with not only a stopped team, but also a dead personnel.

I don't even use this card anymore. I like my combos to have a reliable amount of effectiveness, and with the teams I've seen, this is frequently passed on the first attempt.

Now, I'm not saying that we absolutely cannot change it. A lot of changes have been proposed, and I find some of them reasonable. I'm saying that IMO a change is not needed. :twocents:


So the errata lead sees no need for a change.

What's the point of this poll again?

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Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:20 pm
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Post Re: Quantum Incursions
commdecker wrote:
Randomness is an inherent part of this game (notice the shuffling?), and always has been.


People choosing to play a CCG accept the shuffling as an integral part to the game and one of the skills of a CCG is to build a deck which is good even with this randomness. Therefore, this is a bad argument for demanding acceptance of other sources of randomness in the game. You also don't expect poker players to roll a D6 after the last betting round to choose on out of 6 possible card power charts.

commdecker wrote:
Now consider Seismic Quake, or Ornaran Threat, or Close Call.


The first card is garbage (comparing a random kill to a wall?), the second card becomes a wall of 3Sec + 25 Str (hardly that powerful) - the last one requires either 3 Diplo or 2 Diplo without CS/TS, also hardly as powerful as requiring 2 AU + 2 Sec + 2 Nav + 2 Phys + 2 Empathy + 2 Science to get through.


Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:24 pm
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