[Iron Prime]

So this came up over in the 2E Bromance thread...
How fun would dual personnel cards of Data and Spot or Archer and Porthos be? Would that even work without breaking the templates for the special abilities?

Or Kirk and Butler....

[AllenGould]

So this came up over in the 2E Bromance thread...
How fun would dual personnel cards of Data and Spot or Archer and Porthos be? Would that even work without breaking the templates for the special abilities?

Or Kirk and Butler....

It would depend how the ANIMAL restrictions apply to dual-personnel. Can Data & Spot staff a ship, for instance?

[Mogh, Son Of Worf]

So this came up over in the 2E Bromance thread...
How fun would dual personnel cards of Data and Spot or Archer and Porthos be? Would that even work without breaking the templates for the special abilities?

Or Kirk and Butler....

It would depend how the ANIMAL restrictions apply to dual-personnel. Can Data & Spot staff a ship, for instance?

The Non-Animal classification part should be able to - I am not entirely sure about the implications to Obelisk, though.

[Boffo97]

Don't forget Picard and Livingston.

And Gillian, George and Gracie.

Have fun, designers!

[GooeyChewie]

Gary Seven and Isis! Korob and Sylvia! Man, TOS liked shape-shifting cats, didn’t it?

[Iron Prime]

Gary Seven and Isis! Korob and Sylvia!

Man, TOS liked shape-shifting cats, didn’t it?

Time for a boutique product....

[BCSWowbagger]

A dual-personnel with ANIMAL shouldn't be a problem. (You'd only have to clarify assimilation.)

The rule with dual-personnel cards is that they are two different people who are able to do different things according to their different talents and icons and classifications. Jonathan Archer can initiate battle even though Spot can't. Jonathan Archer can staff a ship even though Spot can't.

The only time they're treated as the same is when something happens to one of them. If one is stopped, so is the other. If one is downloaded, so is the other. If one is assimilated, so is the other. And of course the biggest headache with dual-personnel cards is figuring out random selections with them. (The Rulebook has a whole, surprisingly long, sidebar on just that.)

The only time the ANIMAL rules care about something happening TO you is assimilation: ANIMALs cannot be assimilated. But humans can. So if one personnel on a dual-personnel human/ANIMAL card is targeted for assimilation, it is not clear under current rules what would happen.

OPINION SOAPBOX TIME:

all special rules for ANIMAL should be deleted. The reason Livingston can't commandeer is he doesn't have Computer Skill, not because he's a fish. If we ever do make a fish with Computer Skill (like this guy??), he should totally be able to commandeer. The reason Spot can't staff a ship is because he doesn't have any staffing icons, not because he's a cat. The reason Targ can't initiate battle is because he isn't a leader, not because he's a targ (ever angered a targ? watch out).

I really see no reason why ANIMALs are excluded from Kurlan Naiskos; that seems like Decipher-era b.s. where they abused the rules to fix balance issues -- and that particular balance issue is long since solved. If the Borg decide to assimilate Porthos, why not? It's their call. And if Vina wants to select ANIMAL as her skill? Why not? She's an "Orion animal woman," after all!

So there you go. Delete the ANIMAL rules for great justice and I'll never have to answer this question again.

'til then, dual-personnel ANIMAL/humans are possible, but we'd need an answer on how assimilation would work.

[AllenGould]

The reason Spot can't staff a ship is because he doesn't have any staffing icons, not because he's a cat. The reason Targ can't initiate battle is because he isn't a leader, not because he's a targ (ever angered a targ? watch out).

But should Targ be able to staff the Cha'Joh? (Only reason he can't is the ANIMAL rule). And Boshar has the AU icon to staff a couple of the OS Klingon ships.

Looking through the ANIMAL list it's a Klingon issue since they're the only "on-brand" ANIMALs.

But since I've pulled up the rulebook and Glossary, looking through the list I'd agree there's nothing there except Kurlan that exists other than for flavor reasons. (I'm old enough to remember that Kurlan is because they cheated in Premiere and wrote "all 7" instead of spelling them out, so the ruling is to clarify that they meant the original 7 and not the 8th they created after. Yay old cards!). There's a couple corner cases to check out (does something weird happen if Borg can have ANIMALs, does anything weird happen if you make people ANIMALs or ANIMALs people, is there a stunt where you commandeer a station into Neutral), but I suspect nothing of value will be lost if we punt the rule.

[frakkingoff]

I agree that ANIMALs should be assimilatable. We never saw it on the show, but it seems like the kind of creepy thing the Borg might do on occasion (even the USS Voyager was designed to benefit from organic technology). It was also portrayed in the novels on occasion.

The reason Spot can't staff a ship is because he doesn't have any staffing icons, not because he's a cat.

The problem is, a Targ, Lore, Kivas Fajo, and Jo'Bril shouldn't be able to staff the I.K.C. Qu'Vat any more than Lore, Kivas Fajo, and Jo'Bril on their own could.

ANIMALs don't have command code access or knowledge of species-specific GUIs and Interfaces or whatever it is that requires a matching affiliation to staff an affiliated ship.

I really see no reason why ANIMALs are excluded from Kurlan Naiskos;

Because that's what makes sense with the "story" of the card and what the Naiskos represents. You need to have all the different "types" of people within your diverse community - an ANIMAL is neither a person nor an aspect of personal archetype.

[BCSWowbagger]

But should Targ be able to staff the Cha'Joh? (Only reason he can't is the ANIMAL rule). And Boshar has the AU icon to staff a couple of the OS Klingon ships.

My personal understanding of / headcanon for ships with no staffing icons is that the reason they have no staffing icons is because they have enough computer control to be piloted essentially automatically, as long as there's somebody the computer recognizes as on the same team giving orders.

If that somebody is Boshar with one of those dog-to-speech boxes from Up attached, I don't have a problem with it. (And Star Trek IV canonizes at least some forms of animal speech.) It's less weird than Artim being able to solo-staff a Flaxian Scout Vessel.

There's a couple corner cases to check out (does something weird happen if Borg can have ANIMALs, does anything weird happen if you make people ANIMALs or ANIMALs people, is there a stunt where you commandeer a station into Neutral), but I suspect nothing of value will be lost if we punt the rule.

Good prudent stuff to check on if the RC hears my cry.

Because that's what makes sense with the "story" of the card and what the Naiskos represents. You need to have all the different "types" of people within your diverse community - an ANIMAL is neither a person nor an aspect of personal archetype.

You don't think an ANIMAL can be part of a community -- even an important one? IRL, I don't have much use for animals (certainly don't esteem them as highly as Star Trek IV did), but I think Porthos made himself really a part of the NX-01 family... and that his playfulness was an important reflection of one of that community's diverse elements.

Side note I just thought of: this would be an excuse to finally make a Porthos who can thus be in a deck without breaking UFP: One Small Step.

[AllenGould]

My personal understanding of / headcanon for ships with no staffing icons is that the reason they have no staffing icons is because they have enough computer control to be piloted essentially automatically, as long as there's somebody the computer recognizes as on the same team giving orders.

I go with the "Bob theory" myself (you need more than three people to make the Enterprise-D function; the rest are just Bobs who don't do anything plot/game relevant), but that gets us to the place: Player-as-"in charge guy" orders the Bobs to fly Targ to where-ever you want them to go.

[frakkingoff]

My personal understanding of / headcanon for ships with no staffing icons is that the reason they have no staffing icons is because they have enough computer control to be piloted essentially automatically, as long as there's somebody the computer recognizes as on the same team giving orders.

A computer's not going to recognize a Targ, or any other ANIMAL, as legitimately giving orders. That's Trek-sense, and thus that's the rule.

You don't think an ANIMAL can be part of a community -- even an important one?

No, I don't. Not in the sense of the Kurlan Naiskos.

The reason you need all 7 classification is because you need a diversity of people from all "walks of life," in a sense. A MEDICAL (doctor) sees the world differently than a SECURITY (guard). A V.I.P. (king) has very different life experiences from a CIVILIAN (cook).

An ANIMAL is too far removed from "personhood" to be able to contribute and communicate meaningfully to this diversity that the Naiskos seeks and rewards.

I don't care how much people love their dogs - dogs aren't people. There's a reason we don't consider animals to be people (and thus, a reason the game and the Naiskos doesn't treat them as people).

Honestly, the best fix is to simultaneously drop the rule and errata the Naiskos for clarity. There certainly is precedent to cleaning up the ambiguous text on Premiere cards. That way, you drop the loaded rule, fix an ambiguous card, and keep the story and intended effect. There's also probably room enough (especially if you drop the redundant "(Not Cumulative)"):

Place in hand until played on any ship as an Event card. If ship has OFFICER, CIVILIAN, VIP, MEDICAL, SECURITY, ENGINEER, and SCIENCE aboard, its attributes are tripled.

Side note I just thought of: this would be an excuse to finally make a Porthos who can thus be in a deck without breaking UFP: One Small Step.

Making Porthos was a huge mistake. It makes sense that Spot is - she's a cat, and cats are notoriously independent and self-interested. They're on their own team. Same goes for George and Gracie (Team Whale is its own team, and independent of galactic affairs) and Livingston and the Osmotic Eel (lacking enough awareness to have any Team considerations).

But dogs are much more loyal and devoted to their owners and would see themselves as being on their owners' teams. Just as Targs are rightfully Klingon, Porthos should have been Starfleet.

[geraldkw]

go with the "Bob theory" myself (you need more than three people to make the Enterprise-D function; the rest are just Bobs who don't do anything plot/game relevant), but that gets us to the place: Player-as-"in charge guy" orders the Bobs to fly Targ to where-ever you want them to go.

"Honorable warriors, as supreme leader of the Klingons, I command you to fly my magnificent pet targ Bobo to an important mission called 'fetch the newspaper'."