[bhosp]

So if a dual personnel card that’s a romantic couple is about to be killed, can The Beating Heart save them?

If not, the special download on Worf and Jadzia is kind of strange.

[BCSWowbagger]

So if a dual personnel card that’s a romantic couple is about to be killed, can The Beating Heart save them?

A dual-personnel card isn't killed. A personnel on the dual-personnel card is killed, which causes the other one to die as well. Think of dual-personnel cards as two separate personnel cards tied together with a steel cable. When Personnel A dies and gets sent to the discard pile, Personnel B gets dragged along to the discard pile with Personnel A.

This gives us most of the answer to your question:

If Worf on Jadzia and Worf is about to killed by A Fast Ship Would Be Nice, Jadzia can stop herself and Worf to save him.

If Jadzia on Jadzia and Worf is about to be killed by A Fast Ship Would Be Nice, Worf can stop himself and Jadzia to save her.

If Jol Yichu' hits and opponent selects both Jadzia and Worf to die, however, then Jadzia can stop herself to save Worf, but now Worf is stopped and can't stop himself to save Jadzia. So Jadzia dies. Then Worf dies automatically, because he's tied to Jadzia with that steel cable.

This is how it works most of the time. The exception is if the dual-personnel card is selected in a random selection where the effect could apply to both personnel equally. For example, suppose Worf and Jadzia are in a crew with eight other personnel and encounter Denevan Neural Parasites. DNP selects five people (naturally), and the Worf and Jadzia card is one of the cards drawn. Which one of the personnel was randomly selected to die -- Worf or Jadzia? There's no way to determine that -- it could hit both of them equally. The game shrugs and rules that, since you can't figure out which of them was "really" killed by the DNP, they're both killed. Since both are killed, you get the same situation with The Beating Heart that I described above with Jol Yichu'!: Jadzia can save Worf, but then Worf can't save Jadzia because he's stopped, so she dies, so he dies.

I'm not sure that's the best answer to this knotty problem, but it's the game's current answer.

This situation alone is a good argument for never inventing dual-personnel cards in the first place, but Decipher crossed that Rubicon long before I had any say in it, and I got no problem with Design making more of them now that we've got to support them anyway.

There's brief discussion of the same basic question here: viewtopic.php?p=448813#p448813

[bhosp]

But if it's just one personnel getting randomly selected by something like Horta, the other one can save them?

[AllenGould]

But if it's just one personnel getting randomly selected by something like Horta, the other one can save them?

I'm feeling too lazy to look up the reference, but I seem to recall that if a dual-personnel is targeted by a single-selection the other is also targeted? (The example I recall is that if you're choosing two personnel, picking the dual first counts as two and you're done, while if you pick the dual second the selection extends to three to include them)

[bhosp]

But if it's just one personnel getting randomly selected by something like Horta, the other one can save them?

I'm feeling too lazy to look up the reference, but I seem to recall that if a dual-personnel is targeted by a single-selection the other is also targeted? (The example I recall is that if you're choosing two personnel, picking the dual first counts as two and you're done, while if you pick the dual second the selection extends to three to include them)

The problem with everything in this game is that everyone has their own wrong understanding of the rules that used to be right 20 years ago.

[AllenGould]

But if it's just one personnel getting randomly selected by something like Horta, the other one can save them?

I'm feeling too lazy to look up the reference, but I seem to recall that if a dual-personnel is targeted by a single-selection the other is also targeted? (The example I recall is that if you're choosing two personnel, picking the dual first counts as two and you're done, while if you pick the dual second the selection extends to three to include them)

The problem with everything in this game is that everyone has their own wrong understanding of the rules that used to be right 20 years ago.

The worse problem is that I looked up the current rule (which is even simpler: if you're targeting n personnel you choose n cards; if a dual gets picked both are targeted) and I have the sneaking suspicion I was involved with changing it..

But to answer your Horta question - if a dual gets targeted both halves are.

[bhosp]

I'm feeling too lazy to look up the reference, but I seem to recall that if a dual-personnel is targeted by a single-selection the other is also targeted? (The example I recall is that if you're choosing two personnel, picking the dual first counts as two and you're done, while if you pick the dual second the selection extends to three to include them)

The problem with everything in this game is that everyone has their own wrong understanding of the rules that used to be right 20 years ago.

The worse problem is that I looked up the current rule (which is even simpler: if you're targeting n personnel you choose n cards; if a dual gets picked both are targeted) and I have the sneaking suspicion I was involved with changing it..

But to answer your Horta question - if a dual gets targeted both halves are.

But then why doesn’t saving half the card save the other half?

[AllenGould]

But to answer your Horta question - if a dual gets targeted both halves are.

But then why doesn’t saving half the card save the other half?

Because as far as I can see, preventing isn't on the list of things that propagates to the other half.

(Although note to the Rules folks: the dual personnel entry could use a cleanup.)

If I put on my design cap, I'd suggest that it's the trade off for the other half not counting pips towards Ferengi Conference and the other places where having two bodies on one card is a plus.

But my question is: I don't see a limitation on Beating Heart, so shouldn't you be able to use the ability twice in response? (Worf stops to heal Jadzia, Jadzia stops to heal Worf?)

(Again: it's been a loong work day, so I'm not doing the research I normally would)

[Takket]

I think the way the rule is....... if I'm reading the posts above and my OWN understanding of the above is correct............

When randomly selecting n cards, a dual personal being selected contributes 2 towards n. If the dual personnel is the LAST card you select, n automatically becomes n+1 to accommodate the "extra" person on the dual card.

So if you pull Worf and Jadzia for Horta, the dilemma essentially goes from n=1 to n+1=2 and they are both targeted by horta, so neither one of them is "free" to use TBH to save the other.

[AllenGould]

When randomly selecting n cards, a dual personal being selected contributes 2 towards n. If the dual personnel is the LAST card you select, n automatically becomes n+1 to accommodate the "extra" person on the dual card.

That was the old rule. The current rule (now that I looked it up)is that if you pick n people you pick n cards, and the selection expands to include any duals selected.

In *practical* terms, this is the same as if your dual was selected last. The advantage is that it removes the caring about the specific order that cards are selected, since the same thing happens either way. (It does punish multiple duals, since you could double the number of people you hit if they're all duals - I don't personally see this as a problem)

Note to rules: when you do that rewrite, could we please just treat duals as a single personnel, just one that happens to have two sets of attributes? All it breaks is Ferengi Conference, and that's a gawdawful cheat anyway.

[Takket]

But my question is: I don't see a limitation on Beating Heart, so shouldn't you be able to use the ability twice in response? (Worf stops to heal Jadzia, Jadzia stops to heal Worf?)

I don't see how to link to a specific post so..............

Go here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33513&hilit=beatin ... &start=195

Read my post: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:34 pm
Read BCS wowbagger's reply below my post

Read Commodore Decker's reply on the next page: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:10 pm

[AllenGould]

But my question is: I don't see a limitation on Beating Heart, so shouldn't you be able to use the ability twice in response? (Worf stops to heal Jadzia, Jadzia stops to heal Worf?)

I don't see how to link to a specific post so..............

Go here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33513&hilit=beatin ... &start=195

Read my post: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:34 pm
Read BCS wowbagger's reply below my post

Read Commodore Decker's reply on the next page: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:10 pm

I think they have the wrong call - both kills are happening together, so one doesn't die before the other.

There *may* be an argument that once Worf stops to save Jadzia, the rules also stop Jadzia (because they're a dual), and now Jadzia can't pay the stop cost to save Worf. But that's a different argument than in the thread.

[commdecker]

Read Beating Heart. When Worf stops to save Jadzia, he turns her kill into a stop. That's why she's stopped. And since she's stopped, she can't stop again to save him.

[BCSWowbagger]

Read Beating Heart. When Worf stops to save Jadzia, he turns her kill into a stop. That's why she's stopped. And since she's stopped, she can't stop again to save him.

A stopped personnel can't be stopped again to pay a cost, and the first "save" done with Beating Heart stops bother the savior and the saved.

Hence, DEATH.

Probably right the dual-personnel rule could use another look.

[frakkingoff]

[quote="BCSWowbagger"
Probably right the dual-personnel rule could use another look.[/quote]

Especially since the whole point of this card is that it's downloaded by a dual-personnel card.

If the card can't save personnel from random selection dilemmas, it's really not much use to the original practitioners of this ability, is it?