[MattgomeryScott]

I don't see why not. As laid out in the lore on Caught Red-Handed.

Odo used his instincts as both an investigator and a shape-shifter to expose a Founder spy masquerading as Admiral Leyton on Earth in 2372.

So why couldn't Yarnek use his instincts as an empath, his study of human behaviour and as a shape-shifter to do the same?

That's a complete misreading of the story of the card, the gameplay of the card, and the story of the episode.

Odo used the mechanics of his his shape-shiftiness to expose the founder. When one shifter touches another, they goo-ify into each other. Odo's "instincts" lead him to USE this mechanic, but they were not the method of how he exposed the founder - they were just what told him who to use his methods on.

You can't assume he's a shape-shifter, and then ask "Why couldn't he use his shape-shifting skills to do shape-shifting stuff? He must therefore be a shape-shifter." That's circular reasoning.

I'm not assuming he's a shape-shifter. I'm taking the central question posed by this thread, and then I'm using the evidence of his ability to shift shape in the episode, as supported by the subsequent novel, the official Star Trek site and Star Trek Encyclopedia, to state that in my view on the balance of evidence he is a shape-shifter.

I'm also explaining why I believe he (and the other Excalbian's) would be able to use the existing cards that refer to shape-shifters.

And if catching shape-shifters red handed was exclusive to changelings, then why does the card not specify changelings for that part of the text? Why can Martia, Salia, Anya, Sarin and Silik use it when none of them are changelings and so would not have the "goo-ify" effect that changeling to changeling contact triggers?

My reading of this card is that a person who can shape-shift knows what to look for when it comes to others who can shape-shift, and when combined with Odo's investigative skills (or Yarnek's empathy and study of human behaviour) they are able to find the other shape-shifter.

If we're saying that Martia (Chameloid,) Salia & Anya (Allasomorph,) Sarin and Silik (Suliban) can all shrink down to the size of a bird, rat or manportable object, I don't see why it wouldn't work with Yarnek.

Again, you're using circular reasoning to justify why he's a shapeshifter. The reason it wouldn't work with Yarnek is the same reason it wouldn't work with Jean-Luc Picard - because they're not shapeshifters.

All of the shifters you listed - Martia, Salia/Anya, Silik - demonstrably changed their mass and size on-screen in a shape-shifting morphing effect. Yarnek did not.

And you're using circular reasoning to justify why he isn't.

Jean-Luc Picard never demonstrated the ability to change shape, where as Yarnek (and all the other Excalbians) did.

I also disagree that he didn't demonstrate the ability to change mass, as Yarnek in boulder form, and Yarnek in humanoid form look to me to be different sizes and shapes, so I disagree that he didn't demonstrate mass and size changing abilities on-screen.

As for the lack of a specific shape-shifting morphing effect, Yarnek is also from the original series, the third season to be exact, where both special effects and budgets were less.

I haven't read the books at all. But if that's canon then I can see him being a shapeshifter, yeah.

The books are not canon.

No, but they and other Start Trek media have been used as sources of information for Star Trek Cards in both the Decipher and CC eras.

In my view the evidence is pretty conclusive that Yarnek in particular (and the Excalbians in general) are a shape-shifting race, and why I believe they should have shape-shifter. I respect that you feel differently.

All the Best,

Mattgomery Scott.

[bhosp]

Now that Manassters 2: 2Man 2Assters has wrapped up, time to see how that 1E WotC thing is going...

[bhosp]

This is the one episode of TOS I've never seen all of (and I kinda don't want to, because then I'll have seen all the TOS that will ever be made),

This is the same reason I abandoned my DS9 rewatch after Extreme Measures tbh.

[frakkingoff]

I'm also explaining why I believe he (and the other Excalbian's) would be able to use the existing cards that refer to shape-shifters.

Ok, but the whole point of Maelwys's exercise was to list the shape-shifting cards and ask if they (their affects and powers) would logically apply to Excalbians - if they do, then Excalbians are shape-shifters. If not, then they're not.

What you were doing was listing the cards and saying "He's a shape-shifter, therefore why wouldn't these cards apply?" Which is not very instructive.

And if catching shape-shifters red handed was exclusive to changelings, then why does the card not specify changelings for that part of the text? Why can Martia, Salia, Anya, Sarin and Silik use it when none of them are changelings and so would not have the "goo-ify" effect that changeling to changeling contact triggers?

I assume for historical reasons - Caught Red-Handed didn't specify changelings because, at the time, there were no gameplay distinctions between shape-shifters and changelings. All the shifters you listed were created and released after "The Dominion," at which point the distinction between "changeling" and "non-changeling shape-shifter" became important (for things like Jem'Hadar suicide).

I also disagree that he didn't demonstrate the ability to change mass, as Yarnek in boulder form, and Yarnek in humanoid form look to me to be different sizes and shapes, so I disagree that he didn't demonstrate mass and size changing abilities on-screen.

I haven't seen the episode in a long time - based on the images, it seemed like living Yarnek and rock Yarnek were approximately the same size, that he had just been curled up and hiding. I could be wrong.

[MattgomeryScott]

I'm also explaining why I believe he (and the other Excalbian's) would be able to use the existing cards that refer to shape-shifters.

Ok, but the whole point of Maelwys's exercise was to list the shape-shifting cards and ask if they (their affects and powers) would logically apply to Excalbians - if they do, then Excalbians are shape-shifters. If not, then they're not.

What you were doing was listing the cards and saying "He's a shape-shifter, therefore why wouldn't these cards apply?" Which is not very instructive.

… Sorry, bit confused. How is Maeleys listing why he doesn't think those cards would apply to Excalbians any different to how I listed why I think they do? Given the abilities demonstrated by Excalbians such as Yarnek, logically I think they could do any of those.

And if catching shape-shifters red handed was exclusive to changelings, then why does the card not specify changelings for that part of the text? Why can Martia, Salia, Anya, Sarin and Silik use it when none of them are changelings and so would not have the "goo-ify" effect that changeling to changeling contact triggers?

I assume for historical reasons - Caught Red-Handed didn't specify changelings because, at the time, there were no gameplay distinctions between shape-shifters and changelings. All the shifters you listed were created and released after "The Dominion," at which point the distinction between "changeling" and "non-changeling shape-shifter" became important (for things like Jem'Hadar suicide).

A distinction exists within the gametext of Caught Red-Handed itself.

Caught Red-Handed
Odo used his instincts as both an investigator and a shape-shifter to expose a Founder spy masquerading as Admiral Leyton on Earth in 2372.
Exposes (may capture) an opponent's infiltrator present with your shape-shifter OR prevents a changeling from morphing this turn OR nullifies Common Thief. (May not be nullified.)

(My emphasis)

I can't think of another reason to use shape-shifter for the first ability and changeling for the second, except to create a card whose first ability (to catch a shape-shifter red-handed) worked for all shape-shifters, while it's second (to stop a changeling from morphing) only worked for changelings. Now maybe there is one I haven't thought of, but to me it looks like the intent was always for shape-shifter to be a broader term, while changeling is used for the specific species.

Further examples can be found in The Dominion ( Berserk Changeling and Founder Secret specify "changeling," while Flight of the Intruder, In the Bag, Strike Three and You Dirty Rat specify "shape-shifter,") and even the earlier DS9 ( Vantika's Neural Pathways and The Walls Have Ears specify "changeling," while Angry Mob and Assassin's Blade specify "shape-shifter.")

So to me there has been a definite distinction between the two terms since they were both introduced in DS9.

(Also Anya and Salia are from The Dominion, not after. So it seems logical that the designers of Caught Red-Handed intended for them and other shape-shifters to use the first ability, rather than as a legacy/historical choice.)

I also disagree that he didn't demonstrate the ability to change mass, as Yarnek in boulder form, and Yarnek in humanoid form look to me to be different sizes and shapes, so I disagree that he didn't demonstrate mass and size changing abilities on-screen.

I haven't seen the episode in a long time - based on the images, it seemed like living Yarnek and rock Yarnek were approximately the same size, that he had just been curled up and hiding. I could be wrong.

It's been a long time since I saw it too, but based on my memories (and taking a look at the sequence of screengrabs here: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.p ... 41&page=20 ) while I agree it's hard to judge, to me it looks like he gets smaller. But I could be wrong too.

I guess part of it probably comes down to whether you consider Lincoln and co to be Excalbians (like Yarnek) or something else, given the episode never explicitly states it.

That got a bit heated, sorry. Thank you for the interesting discussion and for taking the time to explain your viewpoints on this. Even if we don't agree, I enjoy hearing how other people see things and trying to see them from their point of view. Perhaps we can agree to disagree and let the voting public decide!

Anyway, speaking of History, I have to be off as I have History Club at my local college to get to. Hope you and everyone have a good evening.

All the Best,

Mattgomery Scott.

[Tim]

Ok, but the whole point of Maelwys's exercise was to list the shape-shifting cards and ask if they (their affects and powers) would logically apply to Excalbians - if they do, then Excalbians are shape-shifters. If not, then they're not.

I don't think any part of 1E has ever been that consistent. Not the lore spliced keywords.

Yarnek seemed to shift his shape in the episode.


What's more relevant in reviewing the shape-shifter related cards is gameplay power --- does giving Yarnek shape-shifter unbalance the card or force us to weaken him somewhere else? I don't think any of the shape-shifter cards make him overpowered? Most are cards that could use excuses to see play.

[bhosp]

Mayyyybe you guys picked the wrong character when you picked an outer space weirdo carrot man instead of Colonel Green.

[MattgomeryScott]

Mayyyybe you guys picked the wrong character when you picked an outer space weirdo carrot man instead of Colonel Green.

Then we'd be debating if this Colonel Green is a shape-shifter and genetically enhanced. ;-P

All the best,

Mattgomery Scott.

[GooeyChewie]

I got the impression that Lincoln (and the others) were projections, not shape-shifted Excalbians. I also figured the rock version of him was simply him not moving.

[MattgomeryScott]

I got the impression that Lincoln (and the others) were projections, not shape-shifted Excalbians. I also figured the rock version of him was simply him not moving.

I can see why. But based on the line from the episode quoted earlier:

When beaming Abraham Lincoln aboard...

SPOCK: Fascinating. For a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. It’s settling down now to completely human readings.

I think that strongly suggests they are Excalbians who have taken the form of Honest Abe and co.

All the Best,

Mattgomery Scott.

[AllenGould]

I looked at Memory Alpha and it's all over the place as to what's going on.

Spock later observed the Excalbians appeared to possess the "ability to control matter and to rearrange molecules in whatever fashion was desired." This allowed them to create other beings, who appeared or registered as humanoid, by "using their fellow creatures as source matter." These forms taken by Excalbians truly believed and behaved like the person they portrayed.

Which sounds less like shapeshifting and more like construction to me.

And then elsewhere:

The illusory version of Colonel Green

(emphasis mine)

In all, it strikes me that the episode itself doesn't know (or care) how they did it.

[frakkingoff]

… Sorry, bit confused. How is Maeleys listing why he doesn't think those cards would apply to Excalbians any different to how I listed why I think they do? Given the abilities demonstrated by Excalbians such as Yarnek, logically I think they could do any of those.

It seemed like your reasoning was a direct reply to his method. Maybe I misunderstood.

A distinction exists within the gametext of Caught Red-Handed itself.
...

Further examples can be found in The Dominion ( Berserk Changeling and Founder Secret specify "changeling," while Flight of the Intruder, In the Bag, Strike Three and You Dirty Rat specify "shape-shifter,") and even the earlier DS9 ( Vantika's Neural Pathways and The Walls Have Ears specify "changeling," while Angry Mob and Assassin's Blade specify "shape-shifter.")

So to me there has been a definite distinction between the two terms since they were both introduced in DS9.

You're right, my bad.

(Also Anya and Salia are from The Dominion, not after. So it seems logical that the designers of Caught Red-Handed intended for them and other shape-shifters to use the first ability, rather than as a legacy/historical choice.)

For some reason, I thought they were from Blaze of Glory, my mistake.

Mayyyybe you guys picked the wrong character when you picked an outer space weirdo carrot man instead of Colonel Green.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos Colonel Green.