[AllenGould]

Not changing fundamental mechanics of 1E: A Hill I am willing to die on

We've done it before to mechanics that are older. ( is four sets in, after all).

Although, I'll trade keeping if we get mission stealing back.

[sexecutioner]

Keep special downloads special.

I will oppose this forever. There's so much quirky combinations to be had with

If my opponents gonna 'bug out', I just Crash them.

[BCSWowbagger]

Not changing fundamental mechanics of 1E: A Hill I am willing to die on

If somebody hadn't been willing to change the fundamental mechanics of 1E, we wouldn't have in the first place. (We'd also still allow to play during mission attempts. And we'd have 60-card decks.)

A game that stops iterating its mechanics in response to changes in its own card pool is a dead game walking.

Yeah, this might sound like a "European mob"

It's good, actually. As someone who supports this change and thinks it's good, obviously I wish Europe were supportive.

But, as someone who is aware that Europe -- especially continental Europe -- has a meta, playstyle, and list of needs that is often invisible to the rest of the world, it is important to hear when Europe has a fairly united opinion on something. It seems this is one such thing.

(On the other hand, I know Christof / Smiley supported something like this back when he was brand manager, so I'm curious what his playgroup now thinks.)

I have come to think that significant changes that take something away from a vocal group need to be counterbalanced by a significant change that gives something of approximately the same value to that same vocal group. So now I'm thinking, "Okay, I still think this is a good idea; what does Europe want that we could give them to get them on board with this?" That's healthy and wouldn't have happened without the "European mob" you mention.

I want special (disrupt play) downloads - not retarded (slower and later) downloads.

Okay. Should be allowed to suspend play as well?

The most important thing is consistency. As the timing rules have become more and more convoluted for the average player (because more and more cards deliberately exploit loopholes in the timing rules), the massive inconsistency between how and work has become a large barrier to understanding the game. One way to fix the inconsistency would be to slow down . But the other way would be to speed up .

So, if you want to work during mission attempts, then how about ? I keep asking this question of people who support suspends-play timing and I keep on getting non-answers.

[Orbin]

I would love to have a tool added to the Design Toolbox that gave us the download at regular speed without having to use extra words ("Once per game, may download" is a lot of extra text on a personnel). Having something like that would make it easier to keep doing the "this guy brings this thing" without having to use suspend play timing or lots of extra words

- James M

[commdecker]

I’m with my fellow Europeans - Keep special downloads just that: SPECIAL.

Don’t change the rules from what people know and understand - if people can still recall the rules, changing them becomes a barrier to entry.

That's an argument for never changing any rules. Sometimes a change is good. Getting rid of the Frool rule was good for the game. Getting rid of blanket permission for downloads in the card play phase was good for the game. IMO this is too.

Plus, I think the bizarre special case of the suspends-play part of the timing rules is a larger barrier to entry.

[Armus]

I've already stated my position that this doesn't "feel" like a good change right now, and I stand with the European consensus.

However, I think this whole issue bears more watching. As more cards come out and more become available, maybe a relook is a good idea at some point.

As far as some specific tweaks, I did have a couple of thoughts, neither of which changes the fundamental mechanic of the icon, and at this point are for discussion purposes only - I'm not even sure I'm willing to recommend them, but they did get me thinking:

1.) Change the "stopped" rule to add "use " to the list of things a stopped personnel can't do.

2.) A bit dicier, but tweak the relevant rule(s) to only allow during a mission attempt if the card with the is directly involved in the attempt. That way you at least have to risk your bugout downloaders in the attempt you're looking to bug out of. It also limits the dial-a-personnel on various ships to only work at space missions (or dual, to include Buried Alive)

If we have to change something, let's start with tweaks vice total overhauls.

Thoughts?

[BCSWowbagger]

While Armus is asking questions, I'd like to add another, specifically for Europe:

Europe, which specific cards would you miss if this rule changed?

For example, I would imagine (from my chair here in Minnesota) that some of you would really miss Starship Enterprise's ability to download Dr. McCoy directly to any MEDICAL-related dilemma, because that's a very strong ability that wins people games.

But I also imagine that you wouldn't be bothered by Livingston losing the ability to download Ready Room Door mid-attempt, because (a) nobody uses Livingston, and (b) download RRD in the middle of a mission attempt isn't very strong anyway.

So: which ones do you care about? You've all made clear you oppose this change, but only Stefan Slaby has articulated any specific reasons why.

I know Slaby's answer: he would mainly miss The Gift plus, to some extent, all the other bug-out cards. But what about the rest of you? If this rule changed, would you also mostly miss the bug-outs? Or would you be missing the dial-a-skill powers? Or the "any equipment" downloads? I made a big list of affected cards which you can browse if you're looking for ideas.

It's not out of the question that some combination of a rule change and a new card could make everybody happy. Slaby mentioned the nerf to Scan; maybe that could be looked at again. Others have mentioned Containment Field. At this stage, to my mind, everything's on the table. But, for something like that happen, I think America needs to have a better understanding of what this rule means to Europe on a day-to-day basis.

Thanks for your guidance.

[Clerasil ToB]

Europe, which specific cards would you miss if this rule changed?

I won't miss a specific card, on the contrary I would love to see The Gift gone, but are one of the few things allowing you to cheat during a mission attempt (and by saying cheat I mean so something to react on certain Dilemmas / situations). I would miss that thing. And of course there are a few cards allowing you to cheat during a mission attempt (like Seductive Dance) which would get much more powerful than they already are if the other common cheating mechanisms are gone...

[BCSWowbagger]

Europe, which specific cards would you miss if this rule changed?

I won't miss a specific card, on the contrary I would love to see The Gift gone, but are one of the few things allowing you to cheat during a mission attempt (and by saying cheat I mean so something to react on certain Dilemmas / situations). I would miss that thing. And of course there are a few cards allowing you to cheat during a mission attempt (like Seductive Dance) which would get much more powerful than they already are if the other common cheating mechanisms are gone...

Thanks, Julius. That is helpful.

I had hoped to get a few more replies before saying thanks, but... well, here we are. I appreciate you taking the time.

[sexecutioner]

Here's an example...

One time, when playing Borg. I needed a specific drone on an opponents ship. Sadly, The only ship I had at the location was a scout ship, so I couldn't report there. Also, it was in the middle of my turn, so way past the report phase.

Thankfully, I had Three of Nine in play, and also Third and Fourth were on the scout ship.

So.... I used Three of Nines special skill to place a card beneath my deck, but before I completed the skill to draw a card, I used Third and Fourths to place Maturation Chamber directly onto the opponents ship. So when drawing the card via Three of Nine, I used Maturations text to report a drone directly to the opponents ship.

I emphasised that I was away to use Three of Nines skill, so the opponent thought they were safe for now and didn't return their ship to hand, but I had Commandeer Ship seeded. So by the time the skill was used, they couldn't return their ship to hand

1E is weird and wonderful like this. This rule should not be changed.

[Ensign Q]

the SD timing is still insane to me, but i got used to it.
Id rather make interrupts suspend play now, since i still want to use more streamlined rules and "interrupt" kinda sounds as it would suspend play anyway lol

[Spectre9]

Might be time to revisit this discussion with TOS pushing the special downloads to the limit.

Classic Communicator in particular being on many different personnel means you're never far away from an extra skill when you need it.

I mean how do you nerf the CC usage without changing the special download rule?

[Mogh, Son Of Worf]

I mean how do you nerf the CC usage without changing the special download rule?

We talked about this during Worlds. Commonicator is beyond stupid as of now. A reasonable fix would be to allow selections on the OS equipments only at start of turn.

[Takket]

Might be time to revisit this discussion with TOS pushing the special downloads to the limit.

Classic Communicator in particular being on many different personnel means you're never far away from an extra skill when you need it.

I mean how do you nerf the CC usage without changing the special download rule?

is using this a "valid response" during another action? Like "I need 2 Biology for this dilemma but i only have one, so i'm going to use my CC skill select to add Biology to someone".

[Latok]

Might be time to revisit this discussion with TOS pushing the special downloads to the limit.

Classic Communicator in particular being on many different personnel means you're never far away from an extra skill when you need it.

I mean how do you nerf the CC usage without changing the special download rule?

is using this a "valid response" during another action? Like "I need 2 Biology for this dilemma but i only have one, so i'm going to use my CC skill select to add Biology to someone".

No it's not but when the equipment enters play it's ability activates.